Play Balance regarding Russia

[Cheesehead]

I started another dreaded play balance debate vis-a-vis Barbarossa on the WiF list and I thought I'd pose the same question here. My contention is that: If the Axis get between 13-15 fine weather impulses in '41, they should roll over Russia as long as the Germans are patient, don't flip attackers with low odds attacks, and get average rolls.

I don't claim that the game is broken because of this. Getting the 13-15 fine weather impulses is not a given, although it is not all that difficult, either. My original point in bringing up this question is that the 2D10 CRT only exacerbates this situation, making the German attack practically automatic, as long as he is patient.

The conventional wisdom for defending Barbarossa is to defend only good terrain, trade space for time, defend cities with cheap GAR and MIL, ground strike when out of GE intercept range. ie. follow Vesa's advice from his excellent web site.

I've done all of this and continue to get run off the European map by ND41 each game, and I'm getting frustrated. I've resorted to blaming the 2D10 and my own poor strategy, which is the real reason for this post... consider this a cry for HELP.

My next thought is to stuff the border every game I play Russia...but I don't really like this because I think it is too severe (or effective) if it works. I hate to win a game just by drawing good chits.

Any thoughts?

My apologies if this has been beaten to death, before. I'm too lazy to search through old posts for the answer to my strategy deficiencies.

Thanks

John

[CBoehm]

The key to "saving" USSR is usually not USSR (since most people know how to play sensible with them) BUT .... CW !

To ensure USSR is not crushed by GE in a 41-barb, it is IMO essential that CW doesnt frit away her strength in 40-early 41 ...so an effective counterattack can be mounted as soon as GE has committed itself in USSR ...by this I mean that the CW must have 2 AMPH + 1 paratroper + various mech, inf, "whatever"-units to follow up with to ensure either victory in a limited theather such as North Africa or tie up Axis units and move on to the next objective ...constantly opening new fronts, expanding them forcing the Axis to commit units to block them in at which point you are happe that you tie up his units ...and you go and open a new front ....and by 42 massive US forces will start to flow in ...to sum up my experience it is NOT usually the USSR play that is to blame in case of a successfull GE barb-strategy BUT the CW & US play ...

[YohanTM2]

I agree completely. Many years ago I won a WiF tournament in Calgary as Russia. But, and he got some votes as well, the reason was that CW had drawn off just enough to give me the shot.

The only reason I was voted the winner over CW was when Germany started to strain I was able to pincer his forces and really drub him.

[trees]

I think Russian play is very important and not always understood. The problem is that good defensive play is very boring and Allied players tend to pick up the attack dice before they can truly afford the results of a bad roll. The Russians should retreat from Barbarossa, leaving just enough cheap units to be swallowed by the Axis horde to get the factories out. They should never let their mobile forces come within range of Axis air. They should never fly their air units too early in a turn when they risk being overrun later in the turn. But this is a boring way to play a wargame and too many Russian players give in to temptation to fight back too early. Every time I've abandoned the flanks of Moscow the German has gleefully (yet laboriously) swallowed up the 7-2 MIL and 7-3 INF left inside, thinking victory is just around the corner ... until the two blue factories running on saved oil in Siberia spit out enough Infantry to bring the panzers to a halt, deep inside Russia where they just never seem to have enough units to cover the ever expanding flanks in the Russian funnel. The Russians should also hold their best defensive hexes - Leningrad, Rostov, and the Crimea - with their very best white-print leg units and guns, to suck up more Axis units and action limits either sieging them or screening them. The Russians should turn and fight for Vologda and the Caucasus finally, especially the latter of course, with the carefully saved mobile and air forces to the north threatening the flank of a German advance in that direction. Eventually the Red Army will have enough mass to fight using a regular line and pick up the attack dice.

If the Russians don't do these things the Axis will kill their units steadily and the Russians will get so weak the Axis can easily afford to deal with any western Allied threat.

I think the bigger game balance challenge is for how the Axis can survive the Allied juggernaut.

[Cheesehead]

That sounds like the standard, "trade space for time" strategy. Retreating your Armor and MECH units, holding cities with cheap INF, groundstriking late in the turns, etc. The problem with this is with average turn length / weather rolls, and patient German play (not making attacks at less then +14 blitz or +20 assaults, the Germans will soon run the Russians off the Europe map by the end of 41. They will then be in a great position to punch through the Caucasus in '42 with a couple of O-chits. With all the oil gone, Russia is done for before the USA can get into France with any serious force.

[trees]

If the Germans won't attack at less than +14 they won't leave the European map very soon. All the cities will tie them down quite a bit. A slow methodical German won't get rolling fast enough to take any blue factories. It's really not as hopeless as you think, and Russia can come back from the Asian map. (Playing with saved oil helps a lot here). Just keep churning out cheap infantry and nothing but cheap infantry (maybe a few FTRs too). Don't lose a unit with tanks until 1943 and you've done it right; the T-34's hover just outside of Stuka range, with their own FTR cover, in clear terrain actually; without air support the Germans can't attack a double stacked MECH/ARM hex very easily. If Zhukov, Koniev, the mobile core and the Red Air Force fighters can survive 1942 the Soviet Union will survive. The previous posters were right, the West needs to do something as well to start drawing Axis units and air missions away from the East. Your comment about ground striking perplexes me...I wouldn't suggest investing in any bombers for the Russians, only fighters until the front begins to stabilize. I'd put pilots in the ever flexible TB-3s but that's about it, hopefully you draw two of them to start. Otherwise with only three air missions per land impulse, ARTillery is a far better investment for the Russians. Later in the game a bomber force is essential but not with fractional odds and 2d10 in the first half of Barbarossa.

[trees]

Oh and also, especially with the Politics in Flames additional MIL, I wouldn't spend so much on them. Maybe 1-2 per turn to make progress on emptying the pool. But all the 2 and 3 factor ones aren't worth using at the front, Manstein licks his chops at their appearance. Regular INF will do a better job of slowing the Germans, costing them casualties and flips. The Russians need to scrap carefully as they go. Anything that is less combat factors than BP shouldn't be built to start with. Once the 2-1 GARR and 3-3 INF get killed the first time I scrap them. Maybe the second time through I scrap the 4 factor INF and 3 factor GARR. In 1944 when the Russians reach East Prussia and Bucharest they will suddenly have a surplus of land units so they can afford to scrap some.

The space/time dance is very delicate but if done right I don't think the Germans can make it to the Asian map in 1941; Generals Mud, Winter, and Mini-Pass do their part for that. 15 Fine weather impulses in 1941 in Russia would be pretty lucky I would think.

The Yanks don't need to launch an early D-Day to rescue the Russians either. A serious threat to Italy and/or diversionary bridgeheads in Denmark and the Balkans will help a lot, and maximizing the Lend/Lease BPs and resources that can be landed is also important. The most dangerous Barbarossa's start with the Axis already controlling Bandar Shupar, Vladivostok, and Narvik.

It is also a good idea to put your CPs in the Caspian Sea or build some new ones for it.

[Cheesehead]

15 Fine weather impulses in 1941 in Russia would be pretty lucky I would think.

Well, lets see: The Axis should hope to get 5 in MJ and 6 in JA. Then it is not unreasonable to get 2 fine weather impulses in SO. That's 13 right there. Getting a fine weather impulse in MA and another in ND is not expected, but it's also not terribly difficult, either. If the Allies get lucky on ending one of the summer turns early, that might eliminate one or two good impulses for the Axis, but this about as likely as getting a fine weather impulse in ND or MA. I would say that, without crunching the numbers...13 fine weather impulses is about average.

Now I'm mainly referring to fine weather in the N. Temperate. There is a better chance for rain in the Arctic, as you know, but this is not necessarily bad for the GE as it is more difficult for the Russians to move to better defensible positions without flipping in rain. The GE have much better movement.

Now what you are saying about always keeping the Russian ARM and MECH out of range of the Axis air (and I'm considering a strong IT air force in the East to help with FTR cover) means that the front line Russian units will be composed of slow moving INF and arty. This is what creates easy " kills" for the GE attackers at +16 or better. Every impulse GE closes up to these soft units, doesn't attack if they are in good terrain, presenting the Russian the choice of standing in place or retreating back a couple of hexes to form another line. In most circumstances, the retreat back is not very attractive because, with a few exceptions, the Russians will not be able to cover all their front line units with good terrain after a 2 or 3 hex retreat...which is the maximum speed of most of the cheap Russian INF and arty.

The other choice, stand and fight, will usually result in ground strikes and outflanking. Other than the Dneiper defense line early in Barb, it is almost impossible for the Russians to run a defensive position with two units per hex of any length greater than 4 or 5 hexes. The smart GE will start to "ooch" through the gaps and around the ends whenever the Russians choose to stand and fight. Once an isolated Russian stack has 3 GE hexes adjacent, if he doesn't pull back that impulse he is dead the next impulse.

Russia is big, but it is not that big. Most Russian players start the campaign at the Dneiper line, so the Axis are usually to that point in early MJ41. The O-chit is usually played to break through the Dneiper at this time, so assuming the Russians retreat their force as you say, two or three hexes an impulse, it's not long before the Axis are beyond the factory line, beyond Rostov (usually bypassing the GAR in Rostov until winter) and pushing in around Moscow and forest/river hexes north of Rostov before JA41.

If the GE are this far by the beginning of JA41, the Russians have to start standing and fighting somewhere because 2 and 3 hex retreats during this long turn will result in the Axis running the Russians off the European map in the north and into the Caucasus in the south. By this time, assuming the Russians have sacrificed a number of cheap INF and arty in hero cities, the Russian line will be getting very thin. This is especially exasperated when they have to fan out towards the south in the clear terrain East of Rostov. Now the Russians are only able to muster stacks every other two or three hexes. The GE just keeps closing up to these dispersed lines forcing the Russians to retreat again or else get outflanked and OOS.

In the north, once Moscow is lost, it is especially difficult for the Russians to keep all their units in supply once the bad weather hits. Especially if the Russians have lost an HQ. There are fewer cities East of Moscow and the Russians are usually forced to spread these units south to help cover the line from the units heading towards the Caucasus.

I agree that the Russians can survive getting run off the Europe map in the north, but they cannot survive losing all their oil hexes in the south. If the Japanese have done their job and taken three or four Siberian resources, Russian production will wind down to almost nothing if they lose all their oil. Even with the maximum 6 LL BPs going into Murmansk/Archangel the Russians will be easily contained on the Asian map with a modest GE garrison while the bulk of GE forces moves west to defend against the WAllies. And all that Russian oil/resources flowing into German factories will allow the GE to build out their force pool and start building o-chits to deal with Allied invasions.

This is what I have seen in the last half-dozen games I've played, and I've been on both sides. I think it's possible to win with Russia...I'm just not sure how. I agree with most of what you say in your post [Trees] but I do think you need to expose your armor at least a little bit in trying to stem the tide. I do think it's important to stack an armored corps with an INF corps in the event of a 1B result so that you can save the armor as much as possible. But constantly running your armor units back out of strike range just delays the inevitable. I have seen some success with aggressive ground strikes on GE stacks, but his usually requires a bit of luck to get Russian bombers through the ubiquitous Axis FTR cover (It air force strategy).

Claus, I also have tried various distraction strategies with CW in '41 but they are just not strong enough to cause any serious Axis redeployment. A good GE player usually garrisons France with plenty of cheap GAR and MIL, plus a MECH, a bomber and a weak HQ to make an early D-Day a minor nuisance. Trying to land in Italy in '41 only beefs up IT production without seriously threatening conquest unless IT is woefully unprepared.

I hate to sound so gloomy about the Allies because I love playing that side. But I am very skeptical about Russia's survivability unless the Axis have dreadful weather and short turns in '41.

John

[Froonp]

15 Fine weather impulses in 1941 in Russia would be pretty lucky I would think.

Here are interesting figures, that I computed over our local games (9 games, some being incomplete) :

Average total number of impulses per turn :
J/F 5.0
M/A 5.9
M/J 8.8
J/A 9.5
S/O 7.0
N/D 5.8

Average total number of Axis / Allied impulses per turn :
J/F 2.5 / 2.4
M/A 3.0 / 2.9
M/J 4.1 / 4.3
J/A 4.8 / 4.7
S/O 3.5 / 3.5
N/D 2.9 / 2.8

Max number of Impulses (total), per turn :
J/F 8.0
M/A 9.0
M/J 13.0
J/A 15.0
S/O 10.0
N/D 10.0

Min number of Impulses (total), per turn :
J/F 2.0
M/A 2.0
M/J 3.0
J/A 6.0
S/O 3.0
N/D 2.0

So, the M/J turn is from 3 to 13 impulses long, with an average of 8.8 impulses long.
So, the J/A turn is from 6 to 15 impulses long, with an average of 9.5 impulses long.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

John,

Are you really starting the USSR defense on the Dneiper? And just leaving hexes to the west empty? Even a 2-1 garrison in Lvov and other cities is worth doing, since it makes some of the German units linger in the rear for an impulse. I don't see a need for making the stacks in the western-most cities more than a single unit, but I do feel the loss of a single unit is worth the delay it imposes on Germany. I think of any delay at the beginning of the German offensive sort of like an early mortgage payment - it doesn't cost as much as later payments, but takes the same amount of time off the total duration.

[jesperpehrson]

John,

I have certainly seen Russia fall and gets swept off the map but every time I have been able to pinpoint a reason for it. For instance in one game the CW fails miserably in North Africa and losses a big chunk of its army, freeing troops for Germany plus threatening Russias southern flank. In another case I saw Russia turn belly up after a massive counterattack failed horribly (rolls: 1,1,2,3. All in one turn)

What I have never seen though is Germany winning by grinding the Russian down. Ceteris Paribus the Russian should win such a struggle by manouvering rightly. Then of course there is the luck factor that could swing things but it ususally evens out doesn´t it?

My strategy involves holding the German off for a little while and then opening a small gap, trying to steer him into this gap. On a strategic scale I try to lead the southern attack towards Stalingrad and the northern towards Kalinin. I mean of course the German will capture ground but if you can help him choose and not loose units at the same time then you are in for a long-term win. You have to find the balance between running like a girl and standing firm.

I find the ARM-stacks invaluable. That makes the Germans breakthroughs so much more risky for him. Of course it will be risky to throw your best men against some of Germany´s finest in 1941 but if you can blunt his offensive he will be much more resonable afterwards. Plus you can, if you are really lucky, upgrade your 6-6 ARM to a 12-5 ARM. Even if you do not attack it will make the German think twice before advancing two hexes (or even 1 sometimes).

The airforce is troublesome I think and the biggest problem is that it does not depend so much on the Russian activity. If the Wallies make enough ruckus on that other front in the west you should be able to reach FTR-parity in late 1942. From there on the German punch is considerably less potent.

It is interesting how different groups can have such different experiences. I suppose you should consider making the Russian a bit stronger through a different set of options or houserules, so that every game is not so predictable.

[Cheesehead]

Are you really starting the USSR defense on the Dneiper? And just leaving hexes to the west empty? Even a 2-1 garrison in Lvov and other cities is worth doing, since it makes some of the German units linger in the rear for an impulse. I don't see a need for making the stacks in the western-most cities more than a single unit, but I do feel the loss of a single unit is worth the delay it imposes on Germany. I think of any delay at the beginning of the German offensive sort of like an early mortgage payment - it doesn't cost as much as later payments, but takes the same amount of time off the total duration.

I always claim Bessarabia first chance in '39 and I always put a cheap GAR in the Bessarabian city. I also usually put a couple of cheap INF in Minsk. What has happened in the groups I play in, provided GE has conquered France in 1940, is the GE always start Barbarossa in MA41 regardless of the weather. That gives them plenty of time to take out those speed bumps and still get to the river line by MJ. So it really is just throwing units away to garrison anything but Bessarabia west of the river line unless the GE are not quite deployed for Barb until MJ41.

[Cheesehead]

What I have never seen though is Germany winning by grinding the Russian down.

I appreciate that when you play the same people you can get locked into strategy paradigms that are tough to break out of. That is why I threw this one out there. I'd like to hear how others play it. I have been careful not to declare defending against Barbarossa as hopeless. The game wouldn't have been successful this long without good balance. I just haven't figured it out yet.

I generally follow the advice posted on Vesa's excellent website. This works fairly well if the turns are short with some bad weather sprinkled in. Playing the 1D10 CRT also helps Russia a bit IMO. In fact, that was the original reason for posting this question on the WiF list. I wanted to know if many people still use the 1D10 CRT. It seems to be out of favor these days, especially at WiFcon.

Thanks

John

[CBoehm]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

Claus, I also have tried various distraction strategies with CW in '41 but they are just not strong enough to cause any serious Axis redeployment. A good GE player usually garrisons France with plenty of cheap GAR and MIL, plus a MECH, a bomber and a weak HQ to make an early D-Day a minor nuisance. Trying to land in Italy in '41 only beefs up IT production without seriously threatening conquest unless IT is woefully unprepared.

I hate to sound so gloomy about the Allies because I love playing that side. But I am very skeptical about Russia's survivability unless the Axis have dreadful weather and short turns in '41.

John

hmm well experiences vary. In my gaming group a few of my fellow players had become convinced that it was "impossibe" win as GE in a 41-barb (after I had played CW a couple of times) ....until I tought them the other side of the coin ...so ofcause everything depends on who the players are ....but still in my mind I still believe that the basic strategy for the allies should be:

1) max out the streght of USSR pre barb. - dont loose to much units to JP, take necessary USE hits ei. by taking out Persia & Iraq, if necessary with simultanious USSR-CW/FR attack on Persia to deny JP entry...

2) Use delaying tactics with USSR, trade space for time, build figthers and continously pull back out of GE/IT fighterintercept range ..."Run and live" - preserve the gist of the USSR army to enable ....

3) Final stand in the caucasus preventing Ge access to Turkey and Baku ...and the siberian mountainrange

4) Rail factories to Murmansk ASAP (since rail line will get cut in a matter of impulses) - Archangelsk and Baku ...so when Siberia is cut-off you have factories who can produce from either saved oil ..."native" oil as in caucasus ...AND which will enable greater lendlease (ei LL is limited per city, major port and factories)...

5) If need be, send CW in to secure flanks such as Murmansk and Persia ...

The main allied objective (read CW) should be to help USSR survive 41-42 ...sacrificing production as needed even at a 2-1 tradeoff ...while invading either with the objective of tying up axis units in places such as Denmark, Greece, Youguslavia and "perhaps" France although mainland France is usually not the best place for this unless GE has really undergarrisoned it ....OR capturing bases ei. North Africa, Sardinia, Norway, ...Italy is IMO usually not the best bet to go for unless invasion here will either reap an activation of Yoguslavia or a quick Italian collapse...

If USSR has then survived into 42 ...the US should come in with maximum power ..."who cares how big JP gets if GE collapses in 43 OR who cares how small JP gets if USSR ultimately collapses" ...90% of US fleet and production and EVERYTHING should go to europe ...units should only (perhaps excepting a few subs) set aside to fight JP with the goal of containment - slowing them down! ...or ultimately prevent a meetup of JP and GE-IT ...(its no fun fighting you way into the Mediteranian if the axis controls Suez and JP has a big CV fleet stationed at Aden constantly threatening to lend 20+ nav-factors & a +2 searchplane to the axis Nav&fighterforce operating out of a 1-box in the Mediteranian.)

This IMO is the recipe to prevent USSR collapse and turn the table on Ge ...trust me GE can get mightly streched too in 42 ...if they have to fight a sizeble USSR still able to counterattack as well as a mighty CW-US who have opened fronts from Greece-Youguslavia-Italy-France-Denmark etc. just waiting to get a good chance to insert a decent CW-US mechanized force ...

[Cheesehead]

Hi Claus

Maybe when MWiF is completed we will finally get to play our game. I would very much enjoy having you demonstrate this strategy first hand. Please reserve your first MWiF game for me PBEM. [:)]

Skaal

John

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

Hi Claus

Maybe when MWiF is completed we will finally get to play our game. I would very much enjoy having you demonstrate this strategy first hand. Please reserve your first MWiF game for me PBEM. [:)]

Skaal

John

Cheesehead you take Germany. I'll take Japan. 90% of the U.S. Navy going to Europe [:D]

I'll race ya to New York City

[trees]

I leave two two units in every factory city. I leave Russian guns in Stalingrad and Saratov, though some prefer to put AT guns in the cities as well; I like to just use divisions. I don't even bother trying to stand on the Dnepr...if you make a strong stand there, Guderian just comes around from the weakly held north. With two units in the cities and stronpoints at Leningrad, Rostov, and the Crimea, Germany will fail some of their necessary attacks, or their army will be steadily diluted screening everything. Barbarossa is won or lost in 1942.

Russia's build strategy pre-Barb is also very important. I don't go to Persia for the US Entry benefits (I want option 19 & 30 ASAP), so I don't need Paras or garrison down there. I don't build any bombers or fancy guns or new pilots, but I do like to make occasional progress on the huge Russian FTR pool. I like one fort across the neck of the Crimea. I build all the Arm/Mech corps and all of the Infantry. I don't stuff the border sometimes inviting a '41 Barb on purpose, unless the Germans activated Rumania on impulse 3 of S/O '39 and it is super easy. '41 Barbarossa is scary but it can be survived.

[Cheesehead]

I don't even bother trying to stand on the Dnepr...

Wow, that's interesting. So you just garrison the cities, let those units be taken out and don't try and form a line anywhere? Do you try and defend terrain in other areas (around Moscow, north of Rostov, river lines East of Rostov?)

Where do you keep the bulk of your ARM MECH corps?

Thanks

John

[CBoehm]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

I don't even bother trying to stand on the Dnepr...

Wow, that's interesting. So you just garrison the cities, let those units be taken out and don't try and form a line anywhere? Do you try and defend terrain in other areas (around Moscow, north of Rostov, river lines East of Rostov?)

Where do you keep the bulk of your ARM MECH corps?

Thanks

John

My answer to this would be "out of Ge fighter-range OR atleast intercept-range" ...and I agree about the Dnepr-line ...ZOC defence is the key! NOT trying to hold a line ...

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
My answer to this would be "out of Ge fighter-range OR atleast intercept-range" ...and I agree about the Dnepr-line ...ZOC defence is the key! NOT trying to hold a line ...

Or a combination of the two. Start with a strongly held contiguous line and when the Germans get close enough to make attacks, pull back to a line of every other hex so the Germans have to advance next to it to ooze through. Then pull back some more (1 hex if possible). Eventually reach another strong line of contiguous hexes. There is no one magic bullet, but you have to have multiple ways of defending and responding to what Germany does, and the weather, and the end-of-turn die rolls. This is what makes WIF interesting - there are many small problems to be solved and each has several possible solutions. The ability to choose the correct solution separates the players into different skilll levels. Of course, being lucky helps.