TOAW4 wish list and poll

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by a white rabbit »

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
ORIGINAL: a white rabbit
..elephants (third player or Elmer intervention)...
Seems like I've heard that suggestion before somewhere[&:][:'(]

First we've got to make Elmer good enough that your willing to accept his 'help' and we may have to rework the sequence that turns happen in to get rid of some of the assymetries.

I'd implement it as a simple 3rd player system.
..his tactical command is good, certainly i'd use him for some of the monster scens, how he'd handle my rather untidy battles i don't know..perhaps he can be taught the art of sub-division and recombining...

..in purely vs Elmer scens, is there anyway he can "learn" his opponent's methods, some sort of 'compare with with previous situations" program..
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by a white rabbit »

..
It's times like this that I wish there was a global "entrench/no entrench" switch that one could set for all of ones units in a game. The idea would be to display a warning message about "No Entrenching Allowed" to help those of us who are getting that...whaddya callit?..."old timer's disease"...yeah, that's it. ;)

..by morleron..

..seconded..
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
macgregor
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by macgregor »

I've read the wishlist and am very impressed with the suggestions. Using the air model for naval engagements seems like it could work well(with player-set ranges). Though I'd at least like the ability to create task forces out of individually classed ships I have(with AA, surface ratings, and speed) that can be damaged as well as destroyed. Is that too much?
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by BlackSunshine »

As a long time player of TOAW, my only suggestion would be to remove the attack rounds. 
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by a white rabbit »

..je te remericie pour le  "bump"...
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by a white rabbit »

..or if you prefer..
 
..s'lamat'ko ang  "bump"..
 
..[8D]...
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by morleron1225 »

I have to agree. TOAW3 is still my favorite wargame, as it has been since its original release all those years ago by Talonsoft. That said there are some changes that would make it a better game. Here's my list of things that I would like to see changed listed in order of importance, from most to least:

- allow actual chain of command formation construction/management. It would be great within FiTE, for instance, to be able to call up the actual organization of Army Group Center and see how the supply/command chain is structured. It's ridiculous to have Corps HQs running around with no real function other than to help out with the chain of supply. It would be really nice to be able to attach/detach sub-units during the game to respond to changes in the tactical/strategic situation. This would require some re-working of how supply is handled, but shouldn't be too bad. Adding in higher unit commander/staff performance would be icing on the cake.

- fix the air system to allow for different levels of effort for the different types of missions. This is modeled a bit with the loss tolerance system, but what I have in mind is more detailed in that a player would be able to decide to interdict specific points, if desired, along with deciding what sort of operational tempo should be maintained, which would have an impact on supply consumption/readiness. For instance, an air unit could be set to interdict all hexes within X of a certain location maintaining a minimum of Y planes in the air over the target at all times.

- fix the naval system to allow for interceptions, etc. As it stands right now the navy is not handled well, as I think everyone agrees. A modification of the air system would probably be an appropriate way to handle this.

- improve the AI to allow for a wider range of programmable options and events. I think the overall concept of the PO is very good, it just needs some work to take care of a few rough edges. Given the advances that have been made in game AI I suspect there are some things that could be adapted to TOAW particularly in the area of overall situational awareness. One thing that I've always liked about TOAW's AI is that, while it may not be the best at least it doesn't rely on cheating in order to win. A large portion of it's guts are open to inspection and modification by the gamer if so desired. Also, add a screen that would graphically display the chain of events/actions in a scenario. As it is now, it's very difficult to get a picture of how events interact in a large scenario with a lot of events.

- allow unused defensive works to deteriorate over time. With something such as FiTE it's ridiculous to be able to immediately reuse improved positions that may not have seen use for literally years.

- allow for infinite variability on the map zoom function. This is particularly needed for large scenarios on big maps.

- allow for resizing/moving of information windows along with letting more than one at a time to be open.

- add unit readiness/supply information to the air unit mission assignment screen (the one which appears when one presses "a"). It's a major pain having to go from that screen to the map simply to check unit status for every unit. This is particularly true in scenarios such as FiTE which have a lot of air units.

- I second the earlier suggestion that selecting a unit to be withdrawn on the Anticipated Reinforcements/Withdrawals screen takes one to the on-map position of the unit. I've been caught out a couple of times because I missed a sub-unit of a formation that was being withdrawn in a turn or two and left it in the line.

- allow for a variable unit production system in long-running scenarios such as FiTE and others which cover significant periods of time. This would be a nice feature to have in that it would allow players to tailor their armaments production to battlefield needs. I know this is an area which could be an entire game by itself, but some sort of variability would be useful.

- allow the game to take advantage of the higher screen resolutions that are available today.

On the whole I think that TOAW does a very good job of allowing gamers to play games in a wide range of scales, time frames, and periods. To me that's always been its biggest attraction: it's literally hundreds of games in one. It is difficult to master and doing so will not be done by playing only a few games. It rewards study and those who are willing to take the time to actually read the manual and then experiment with the game will find that it is incredibly deep and, to my way of thinking, does a better job of simulating war than the vast majority of the glitzy 3D "eye candy" games that advertise themselves was real-time simulations, when they are nothing of the kind. Perhaps I'm dating myself, but I think that, for those of us who grew up pushing cardboard counters around, TOAW is a great game: one which emphasizes a player's ability to think about and analyze a situation, not a test of reaction times. It is, after all, a game about the operational level of warfare.

As a last item. If TOAW is abandoned as a title under active development, whether patches or actual updates, it would be wonderful if Matrix would release the code under the GNU GPL Open Source license. That way, those of us who still play the game and would like to push it further would have the opportunity to do so at no cost to Matrix.

Anyway, that's my $.02.



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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by Zaratoughda »

ORIGINAL: morleron1

- allow actual chain of command formation construction/management. It would be great within FiTE, for instance, to be able to call up the actual organization of Army Group Center and see how the supply/command chain is structured. It's ridiculous to have Corps HQs running around with no real function other than to help out with the chain of supply. It would be really nice to be able to attach/detach sub-units during the game to respond to changes in the tactical/strategic situation. This would require some re-working of how supply is handled, but shouldn't be too bad. Adding in higher unit commander/staff performance would be icing on the cake.

Hmmmm.... I suggested this some long time ago. TOAW, has just very limited chain of command.... via the color coding... while AT:WW2, as an example, has full chain of command.... and IMO a major lacking in TOAW.

And the thing is... should not be that difficult to implement. All's that is needed is to allow fomations to contain other formations as units. OK, you would probably need a pointer in each formation to it's parent formation, but still.... should not be that difficult to implement, and then you could go up and down the chain of commant just by clicking.

Also, HQ bias supply should then be linked to this rather than the unit cooperation as it exists now.

I suggested this some long time ago and nothing happenned... not with this or any of the other various ways that TOAW can be improved so.... I finally gave up and have been playing AT. At least with AT one can expect improvements over time.

Z
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

ORIGINAL: morleron1

- allow actual chain of command formation construction/management. It would be great within FiTE, for instance, to be able to call up the actual organization of Army Group Center and see how the supply/command chain is structured. It's ridiculous to have Corps HQs running around with no real function other than to help out with the chain of supply. It would be really nice to be able to attach/detach sub-units during the game to respond to changes in the tactical/strategic situation. This would require some re-working of how supply is handled, but shouldn't be too bad. Adding in higher unit commander/staff performance would be icing on the cake.

Hmmmm.... I suggested this some long time ago. TOAW, has just very limited chain of command.... via the color coding... while AT:WW2, as an example, has full chain of command.... and IMO a major lacking in TOAW.

And the thing is... should not be that difficult to implement. All's that is needed is to allow fomations to contain other formations as units. OK, you would probably need a pointer in each formation to it's parent formation, but still.... should not be that difficult to implement, and then you could go up and down the chain of commant just by clicking.

Also, HQ bias supply should then be linked to this rather than the unit cooperation as it exists now.

I suggested this some long time ago and nothing happenned... not with this or any of the other various ways that TOAW can be improved so.... I finally gave up and have been playing AT. At least with AT one can expect improvements over time.

Z
It's not even close to being simple I'm afraid. There's Elmer to be considered, for one thing, and events for anoter. The big problem is that the UI is all done with 'bitblts' in other words, there are no tree-lists, no combo boxes, nothing like this unless I write it. The proper way to do something like that involves being able to show the OOB in a treeview, with an optional window for the current formation, highlighting the formations on the map, etc. The amount of work doesn't justify the gain right now, even if I added the basics, it would be very difficult to use. I won't put in a feature unless I can figure out a good way to make is usable.

We're currently working on a major patch, it's taken a LOT longer to get out than I wanted, but it does have a lot of really neat features in it. I've posted on it some on my blog. (see .sig)

Yes, the chain of command is a weak point, as is supply. Supply is getting some love in the next patch. Chain of command is going to have to wait for the next version.

Unless something is impossible, the next full version should be compatible with most(hopefully all) existing scenarios, but we do plan to improve the basic engine and do a total rewrite of the interface from scratch using tools like XNA(3D Engine), WPF(Completely configurable 2D/3D engine), and possibly both.

A couple of simple examples of what I'm talking about are a silverlight (WPF) game called hex minesweeper. You can't play the game anymore, but I've got the source, and it's very simple and elegant. This also shows some other things that can be done with games. Silverlight(WPF) is a relatively new technology that makes development simpler.
http://adamkinney.com/blog/349/default.aspx

An example of an XNA game in the works is XNAPanzer. I haven't looked much at it, but it's being worked on, and is open source. XNA is also used for some of the simpler XBOX games, and is a full 3D engine.
http://www.codeplex.com/xnaPanzer

AT seems to be a good game, so by all means, have fun with it, and check back occasionally If you've got more suggestions, please make sure that they're in the master wish list in the scenario design forum. The more completely it's spec'd out, the more likely it will be implemented.

Ralph
Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: morleron1

I have to agree. TOAW3 is still my favorite wargame, as it has been since its original release all those years ago by Talonsoft. That said there are some changes that would make it a better game. Here's my list of things that I would like to see changed listed in order of importance, from most to least:

- allow actual chain of command formation construction/management. It would be great within FiTE, for instance, to be able to call up the actual organization of Army Group Center and see how the supply/command chain is structured. It's ridiculous to have Corps HQs running around with no real function other than to help out with the chain of supply. It would be really nice to be able to attach/detach sub-units during the game to respond to changes in the tactical/strategic situation. This would require some re-working of how supply is handled, but shouldn't be too bad. Adding in higher unit commander/staff performance would be icing on the cake.
Creating a UI to handle it from scratch is the issue. It's being looked at for the next version.
- fix the air system to allow for different levels of effort for the different types of missions. This is modeled a bit with the loss tolerance system, but what I have in mind is more detailed in that a player would be able to decide to interdict specific points, if desired, along with deciding what sort of operational tempo should be maintained, which would have an impact on supply consumption/readiness. For instance, an air unit could be set to interdict all hexes within X of a certain location maintaining a minimum of Y planes in the air over the target at all times.
We may do a little with this in the upcoming patch, and more for the next version.
- fix the naval system to allow for interceptions, etc. As it stands right now the navy is not handled well, as I think everyone agrees. A modification of the air system would probably be an appropriate way to handle this.
We may do a little with this in the upcoming patch, and more for the next version.
- improve the AI to allow for a wider range of programmable options and events. I think the overall concept of the PO is very good, it just needs some work to take care of a few rough edges. Given the advances that have been made in game AI I suspect there are some things that could be adapted to TOAW particularly in the area of overall situational awareness. One thing that I've always liked about TOAW's AI is that, while it may not be the best at least it doesn't rely on cheating in order to win. A large portion of it's guts are open to inspection and modification by the gamer if so desired. Also, add a screen that would graphically display the chain of events/actions in a scenario. As it is now, it's very difficult to get a picture of how events interact in a large scenario with a lot of events.
There are some tools like ODD that should help some. In addition, I'm allowing exporting/exporting the entire scenario as XML in the next patch, and hopefully that will help stimulate some better tools. For the next version, I want to look into adding in a full scripting engine, that would allow the most flexibility. There are a lot of things that can be done with Elmer to allow him to better understand the situation. Many of these can also be overlaid on the maps to assist the player too.
- allow unused defensive works to deteriorate over time. With something such as FiTE it's ridiculous to be able to immediately reuse improved positions that may not have seen use for literally years.
Interesting idea, is it in the master wish list in the scenario design section?
- allow for infinite variability on the map zoom function. This is particularly needed for large scenarios on big maps.
We're looking at that for the next full version. I'll probably use a full 3D engine so that it will take advantage of the video card to allow for smooth zooming.
- allow for resizing/moving of information windows along with letting more than one at a time to be open.
We're looking at that for the next full version. Movable, dockable, tabbed windows should be possible.
- add unit readiness/supply information to the air unit mission assignment screen (the one which appears when one presses "a"). It's a major pain having to go from that screen to the map simply to check unit status for every unit. This is particularly true in scenarios such as FiTE which have a lot of air units.
I'll see what I can do. I may be able to add something easily to the info prompt line.
- I second the earlier suggestion that selecting a unit to be withdrawn on the Anticipated Reinforcements/Withdrawals screen takes one to the on-map position of the unit. I've been caught out a couple of times because I missed a sub-unit of a formation that was being withdrawn in a turn or two and left it in the line.
I'll see if that's practical.
- allow for a variable unit production system in long-running scenarios such as FiTE and others which cover significant periods of time. This would be a nice feature to have in that it would allow players to tailor their armaments production to battlefield needs. I know this is an area which could be an entire game by itself, but some sort of variability would be useful.
Next version, probably the version after. Next version may just add some events and allow tactical options to help instead. A full one is complicated.
- allow the game to take advantage of the higher screen resolutions that are available today.
It should, it definitely does under XP. There was a bug in the Vista video drivers that were giving back the wrong values. It's fixed in the next patch.
On the whole I think that TOAW does a very good job of allowing gamers to play games in a wide range of scales, time frames, and periods. To me that's always been its biggest attraction: it's literally hundreds of games in one. It is difficult to master and doing so will not be done by playing only a few games. It rewards study and those who are willing to take the time to actually read the manual and then experiment with the game will find that it is incredibly deep and, to my way of thinking, does a better job of simulating war than the vast majority of the glitzy 3D "eye candy" games that advertise themselves was real-time simulations, when they are nothing of the kind. Perhaps I'm dating myself, but I think that, for those of us who grew up pushing cardboard counters around, TOAW is a great game: one which emphasizes a player's ability to think about and analyze a situation, not a test of reaction times. It is, after all, a game about the operational level of warfare.
I agree, one thing it needs, though, is to make it more 'discoverable.' It shouldn't be necessary to read the manual several times once I get the UI updated.
As a last item. If TOAW is abandoned as a title under active development, whether patches or actual updates, it would be wonderful if Matrix would release the code under the GNU GPL Open Source license. That way, those of us who still play the game and would like to push it further would have the opportunity to do so at no cost to Matrix.
I've actually been working 20+ hours/week on it for the past several months. The rest of the team has probably been working even more than that. The new supply system turned out to be a lot more complicaed to program than I thought it would be.
Anyway, that's my $.02.
/quote]
And a nice email, thanks.
Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

I suggested this some long time ago and nothing happenned... not with this or any of the other various ways that TOAW can be improved so.... I finally gave up and have been playing AT. At least with AT one can expect improvements over time.

AT seems to be a good game, so by all means, have fun with it, and check back occasionally If you've got more suggestions, please make sure that they're in the master wish list in the scenario design forum. The more completely it's spec'd out, the more likely it will be implemented.

This is what amazes me about Ralph. He never gets mad, no matter how he's provoked. (I should know, since I've provoked him plenty of times). I read that childish lie above and started to boil. Well, everyone must know by now how easy to provoke I am. And even Norm could get testy at times. But never Ralph. We have a gem here, folks. And it's not just his superb programming skills. I hope everyone appreciates him.

As to a chain-of-command hierarchy, it gets suggested all the time. But nobody ever spells out just what it's supposed to do in game terms. Without that, it's just expensive chrome.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by Telumar »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

As to a chain-of-command hierarchy, it gets suggested all the time. But nobody ever spells out just what it's supposed to do in game terms. Without that, it's just expensive chrome.

Then let's begin.. Yes, you're right. It's chrome. People love chrome..

Ok, seriously. Chain of Command hierarchy* makes only sense with other improvements to the game engine:

- composite units
- enhanced command and control, even "leaders"
- supply/logistics

etc

*EDIT: with cross attachment being an integral part of CoC hierarchy
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by Jeff Norton »

This is what amazes me about Ralph. He never gets mad, no matter how he's provoked. (I should know, since I've provoked him plenty of times). I read that childish lie above and started to boil. Well, everyone must know by now how easy to provoke I am. And even Norm could get testy at times. But never Ralph. We have a gem here, folks. And it's not just his superb programming skills. I hope everyone appreciates him.

We all do forget that Ralph does have *normal* work/responsibilities, and this is his *fun*. I was amazed by the 20+ hr comment he posted - I volunteer, but not to that level. Family (and other commitments) are the major soak-off of time.

I do appricate what Ralph has accomplished, and, does. I do some *light* programming, but nothing to his skill/level, and, it can be hard...

Hat Tip, to be sure. We really need to think of a *proper* reward for his efforts, and, for putting up with us...[:D]
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Telumar
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

As to a chain-of-command hierarchy, it gets suggested all the time. But nobody ever spells out just what it's supposed to do in game terms. Without that, it's just expensive chrome.

Then let's begin.. Yes, you're right. It's chrome. People love chrome..

I take chrome very seriously. But should chrome have priority over features that really affect the game?
Ok, seriously. Chain of Command hierarchy* makes only sense with other improvements to the game engine:

- composite units
- enhanced command and control, even "leaders"
- supply/logistics

etc

*EDIT: with cross attachment being an integral part of CoC hierarchy

This is about as far as anybody ever gets (and I include myself it that). Just some vague hand-waving at C&C and supply. It's item 4.10 in the wishlist, but not very well described there. It's a non-trivial problem.
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by Zaratoughda »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I read that childish lie above and started to boil.

What, you spun off a DELUSION for yourself as a matter of stressing your skull's ability to keep your head from exploding??

(just joking <g>)

Hmmm.... Oh yeah, made my previous comments under a previous ID (have moved twice since then and new ISP and new ID now).

(lol)

Z

P.S. Hmmmm... some more 'oh yeah'...... putting in the chain of command without any functional changes, would NOT require any changes to Elmer, and with it you could click up and down the chain of command and actually see the entirety of the army you have at your command. So, no.... I respect Ralph but respectfully disagree with his comments... a lot of talk and nothing accomplished over a long period of time.
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by Zaratoughda »

Hmmm... someone posted that Ralph probably wasn't getting didly squat even for what he is doing re posting to these forums and I was gonna post a reply to that one that they had hit the nail on the head but.... now I can't find that post.

In any case, there are lots of players hear that IMO would put down good money to get some significant improvements to the TOAW engine... and IMO it is MATRIX that is missing out on an opportunity here.

Again, missing out on a significant business opportunity, IMO.

Yeah, might take being a bit creative in doing something like closing down enhancements for TOAW3, opening up a TOAW4 Fast Track (for like $50 that could be used in purchasing TOAW4 when it is ultimately released) and then releasing updates there NOT GOING THROUGH THE NORMAL RELEASE MECHANISM WHICH TAKES FOREVER, and getting enhancements to the player community fast.

Of course, I posted this previously under a different ID and, gee wiz... that was a considerable time ago and nothing since so..... what can I say???

Whatever.... I am hoping that those that are still playing TOAW are still enjoying it but for me, the game is depressing because.... it could be so much better.

Z
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by rhinobones »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I read that childish lie . . .

Think I'll save this gem for future reference.

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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by L`zard »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
This is what amazes me about Ralph. He never gets mad, no matter how he's provoked. And even Norm could get testy at times. But never Ralph. We have a gem here, folks. And it's not just his superb programming skills. I hope everyone appreciates him.

As to a chain-of-command hierarchy, it gets suggested all the time. But nobody ever spells out just what it's supposed to do in game terms. Without that, it's just expensive chrome.

BOB!

Ralph walks on water, especially for what he get's paid to do all of this. [&o][&o][&o] As I've meantioned befor, it's a pity there isn't 3 of him, LOL!

As to 'chain-of-command', in game terms, a (maybe not so simple) linking of formations down the OOB tree would probably satisfy many designers. If the hierarchy allowed more than 12 'formation/units' to be linked to the one directly above etc etc that should make a major difference. I'll admit that there's probably some limit on this re: number of possible links in one OOB tree, but then I can't code, LOL!

If there was an ability to pick the 'highest' HQ in the particular formation OOB on-screen, and have every subordinate unit high-lighted, and the same for each subordinate HQ, it would be nice. (clicking an Army HQ would highlight all units in the Army 'formation OOB', clicking on a Div level subordinate HQ would high-light all units from that Division OOB, etc ...)

Unfortunatly, poor Ralph is working with some OLD code here, and not all things are do-able under the present conditions.

And as previously indicated, I'm not afraid to pay for more developement!!! Anyone that expects to have this game continually developed for free has no real grasp on how the economics of entertainment really work!

This game isn't 'broken' (requires a patch to make it run...) it's just that we're very, very demanding as we get more jaded/and or see where there might be improvements.


"I have the brain of a genius, and the heart of a little child! I keep them in a jar under my bed."

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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by SMK-at-work »

Much as I hate to mention another game - "Advanced Tactics" is great for this -= other aspects don't hold a candle to TOAW IMO, but it's hierarchy of command & supply & transfering units between HQ's, etc., is pdg.
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L`zard
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RE: TOAW4 wish list and poll

Post by L`zard »

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Much as I hate to mention another game - "Advanced Tactics" is great for this -= other aspects don't hold a candle to TOAW IMO, but it's hierarchy of command & supply & transfering units between HQ's, etc., is pdg.

One could only wish that Ralph and the Toad had the resources in similar measure, eh?

Nothing like a 'new' game to get the gravy, LOL!
"I have the brain of a genius, and the heart of a little child! I keep them in a jar under my bed."

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