Suicide runs

Starshatter: The Gathering Storm extends the classic space sim by combining fighter and starship combat in a single dynamic campaign game.
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JT
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:39 am
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Suicide runs

Post by JT »

Howdy.

I downloaded the old Starshatter demo just the other day, and was convinced to buy the new Starshatter:TGS right away (and since it's priced at the same MSRP as non-indie games, this is quite a break in character for me ;-)).

[spoiler alerts for those people who haven't even finished Highland yet ;-)]

During my initial forays into Operation Highland, I was a bit reckless and wound up losing more fighters than the AI -- usually because I wound up drifting too close to a frigate or managed to have sour enough luck to lose my drive, thrusters, and guns in one swell foop, where the enemy could just plant missiles into my tailpipe at their leisure. (I would, however, shower them with a barrage of foul language in lieu of more effective weaponry. I think I made one of their stabilisers blush, but that could've been a trick of the light.)

I found it quite remarkable how many of the fleet assets stayed out of one another's way, just like real life -- where extremely expensive ships are only committed to a pure mano-y-mano engagement if Command believes that the friendly losses will be decisively lower than those of the enemy. Of course, the battle at Jalah was extremely bloody (and darned entertaining), which was a refreshing/heartbeat-skipping break from the original strategy.

In the latter stages of the Operation, however, the Thunderbolts in my wing were tasked with attacking the Gladius destroyer, and this was completely counter to the former strategy, as I'll explain:

Without fail, I would go into that mission carrying two pods of SRMs and four ASMs, and move to engage the enemy destroyer at maximum effective range: I would then squeeze off the ASMs at about 45 km, break course, and retreat before the Gladius could turn or catch me in PDB range. This is the tactic that all fighter assets should employ when attacking a well-armed capital ship without cover or assistance -- minimising exposure. I felt helpless, however, to do anything about my wingmen... I needed them to take their shots against the destroyer, but at the same time they were rock stupid in how they went about doing it: they would fire one ASM at range, and at maximum burn they would continue to home in on the destroyer, waiting to fire their next ASM after the previous one struck. Inevitably, they would correct their course at about 15 km and sail right over top of the destroyer with only a few km to spare, and the obvious fate of a lone, unagile heavy fighter right over top of an armed PDB battery need not be repeated here.

Aside from venting, I was mainly wondering about a couple of things:

1) Is it possible to program Starshatter so assault missions that involve taking out large assets actually launch enough craft and supporting capships to get the job done? Perhaps there could even be a new mission type added, Attack (space) or Raid (surface), whose objectives are only to cause damage to the asset and not eliminate it outright? Though most of our capships were destroyed in the Jalah struggle (the Separatists were hit just as hard, if it makes you feel better), the Radix and Gershon destroyers were intact and had minimal damage, and their assistance destroying the Gladius would have been appreciated.

2) Could points be awarded for inflicting damage on an expensive asset even if that damage doesn't result in its immediate destruction? Say, every 10% damage inflicted on a capital ship or military installation in a given mission gives you 5% of the asset's total value in points: the final destruction of the asset gives you the remaining 50% of the asset's total value. For instance, if the Gladius is sitting at 63% hull status, it has lost 30% of its hull status and we've already been given 15% of its total value in points. I could launch on another mission and eliminate 3% of its hull with a pair of ASMs. As this would bring it down to 60%, I would gain another 5% of its value during that mission, such that I would be rewarded for causing attrition in the enemy even though I didn't destroy her outright.

3) Could fighters learn some tactics that don't involve flying into the effective range of point-defence batteries? ;-)
Starshatter: The Gathering Storm is brought to you in part by Whoop-Ass -- When the Hegemony gets you down, open up a can of Whoop-Ass! Now with extra chutzpah!
Kuokkanen
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Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:16 pm

RE: Suicide runs

Post by Kuokkanen »

Since starships don't fire on fighter mounted missiles, it is safe to shoot from max range and turn away. What you described about that matter don't happen in patched commercial versions (4.5 and hopefully 5.0.1): fighters fire away all ASM missiles in short period. After that they engage guns blazing unless you order them otherwise (form up or return to base).

If there is only one lonely ship, say carrier without fighters, it can be engaged with cannon. Player can find blind spot where PDB don't reach and fire away, but when attacking with wingmen, I recommend using ASM missiles against PDB turrets so they don't engage wingmen. When hull integrity reaches near 0, order wingmen home and back off to max range so your precious fighter don't get caught in explosion.

What comes to combined arms, it is very limited when flying fighter. If you fly Thunderbolt and ask for help, you might get couple Falcons to escort you. If you patrol with Falcon or Stormhawk and stumble on enemy starship, carrier might send Thunderbolts to attack it. If you are on patrol or sweep and you see friendly bombers or starships attacked, you can engage augmenter and go for help.

If you command carrier, you have command for all its fighters and all starships of that fleet. This means you can send out as many bombers with as many fighter escorts as you like against enemy starships, or send fighters cover your starships or what ever. Just remember keep Falcons patrolling around your carrier.
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

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Moriartie
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:46 pm

RE: Suicide runs

Post by Moriartie »

I felt helpless, however, to do anything about my wingmen... I needed them to take their shots against the destroyer, but at the same time they were rock stupid in how they went about doing it: they would fire one ASM at range, and at maximum burn they would continue to home in on the destroyer, waiting to fire their next ASM after the previous one struck. Inevitably, they would correct their course at about 15 km and sail right over top of the destroyer with only a few km to spare, and the obvious fate of a lone, unagile heavy fighter right over top of an armed PDB battery need not be repeated here.
I witnessed different behaviour - they'd unload their ASM's from range. And then when the destroyer didn't die they'd proceed to "kamikaze" into it. I'm doubtful it was intentional either :? .
If you patrol with Falcon or Stormhawk and stumble on enemy starship, carrier might send Thunderbolts to attack it.
I think the point s/he was trying to make was that not enough assets are sent out. 4 fighters for anything larger than a frigate won't cut it, yet it's the default package.
Toshiro
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:50 pm

RE: Suicide runs

Post by Toshiro »

I had a strike against a cap ship, don't remember if it was a destroyer or frigate.  Because the frigates are mostly an Anti-fighter platform I was making sure to come in under him to avoid PDB fire.  Radioed my wing to trail formation. They followed me under, then at 40k range "Atk my target".   Anyway if your in the ships blind spot, I find there is a greater chance of escape with a return to base command right after you release your ASMs.
 
T
JT
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RE: Suicide runs

Post by JT »

Admittedly I didn't look really hard at the missile trails, since I was already breaking course; it is possible that they unloaded them all at range and then went semi-kamikaze afterwards. I didn't come up on the blind spot, since I didn't figure we needed to, but I was quite assuredly in trail formation (I learned that strategy during airstrikes on the Foothill Base). I waited for the Fox Two! notification from all three wingmen before I issued the Return to Formation order, but that was much, much, much too late. =)

I was thinking about subtargetting the PDBs just before I fell asleep last night (which caused some pretty lucid dreams about being hounded by a sniper, let me tell you...), which I believe I'll try next. I did restart Operation Highland (got frustrated that every sortie I flew wound up losing 3 Thunderbolts with no personal losses), so it'll be a couple game weeks before I get back to this situation.

I think the point s/he was trying to make was that not enough assets are sent out. 4 fighters for anything larger than a frigate won't cut it, yet it's the default package.

S/he? Heh. First time I've ever heard someone think the nickname "JT" could also be female. ;-)

But yes, that's the biggest point I was making. The tactics they used were frustrating, but the fact that we had absolutely no chance of destroying the target at all -- such that the only score I would get for the mission would be the incidental points I'd pick up by taking out enemy fighter patrols -- was downright irritating. I mean, even if I'm the lead package in the strike, you'd think that the Archon would send out at least one fighter escort package (I always feel guilty calling for support ;-)), two additional Assault packages to follow up, and position a capital ship at moderate range so it could be in combat range after a minute or less if I radioed in for it.

I like the chain-of-command system, but there needs to be some way to request help from the big boomers, even if that request can be denied:

"Delta 1, requesting heavy support!"
"Gerson, receiving. Request permission to engage."
"This is Archon. Negative, Gerson, do not engage."
"Radix, receiving. Request permission to engage.
"Archon. Negative, Radix, do not engage."

Maybe "there needs to be" is a bit too harsh: "it would be very, very cool if there was" is a little more appropriate. =)


--Jeremy T. Gibson


[edit]
Actually, now that I think about it, maybe it would be best to have a "Strategy" submenu of the Radio menu. Radio->Element->Strategy->Missile Strike would instruct all units in the package to fire missiles at best effective range (not necessarily 50 km) and then disengage. I'm sure a half-hour brainstorming session could come up with other strategies -- Conserve Missiles, Aggressive (default), Stay Near Flight Leader, etc.
[/edit]
Starshatter: The Gathering Storm is brought to you in part by Whoop-Ass -- When the Hegemony gets you down, open up a can of Whoop-Ass! Now with extra chutzpah!
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Zanthras
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:46 am

RE: Suicide runs

Post by Zanthras »

Even as a fighter pilot you have the option of setting the nav points for other ships during the mission briefing. You can assign a specific objective, set the speed, set a hold time and even get ships from other sectors to quantum into your sector. 
 
The can only be set during the briefing though and once committed to certain nav points a cap ship will follow their course and execute their orders...and then fly aimlessly beyond their waypoints to some far away land. [>:]
 
You can also...
 
Request back up as you leave, they should send it.
 
Try using other allied forces to draw the attention off you and strike from below or behind.
 
Once in a cap ship your options only increase, radio options also change...for the better.  
"Don't give up the ship!"
-Captain James Lawrence

JT
Posts: 55
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RE: Suicide runs

Post by JT »

I understand fully that as you reach Commander rank and above, you start getting a lot more command authority.  However, even the most stringent military would entertain suggestions from personnel who are actively engaged in the field, and would only deny their requests if they had sound logistical reasons to do so...

Having more control over your wingmen would also always be nice. =)
Starshatter: The Gathering Storm is brought to you in part by Whoop-Ass -- When the Hegemony gets you down, open up a can of Whoop-Ass! Now with extra chutzpah!
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