v1.205 scenario 3 Pacific Jutland., playing the allies.
Sorry about this but does WPO suffer from the same problems as WitP did before it was patched? It seems to me that Japanese Subs and ASW are lethal. Every sub attack/ASW seems to hit something, where's allied don't? I've played the first month of this scenario and I've had 10 subs hit by ASW and 7 or 8 ships damaged by subs. On the other hand i've hit one Jap sub with 3 or 4 successful sub attacks. Note I don't go into shallow wate, learned that from WitP. I've got Auto Sub combat turned off.
Sub/ASW combat
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Chris21wen
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RE: Sub/ASW combat
That's bad luck on your part. The WitP ASW combat clean-up came AFTER it had been applied to WPO.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
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JagdFlanker
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RE: Sub/ASW combat
i'v lost 12 usa subs in the first 3 months of my 1926 game - almost all in the middle of the nite without my subs having attacked anything. jap DD's just go to whatever hex there's a sub in and immediately clean it's clock like the sub is chained to the bottom of the ocean trying to break away at full speed and the jap DD's have a modern sonar suite that detects subs up to 4 convergence zones (80-100nm) away and attacks it with ASROC's and seahawk ASW helos with Mk50 torps. the only counter that i know is to keep your subs moving endlessly like a shark, even if it's a real pain to have to constantly micromanage all your subs every turn. never leave your subs in the same hex for more than 1 turn near an enemy airfield, because once it's detected and the japs put DD's on it it's dead. to be fair it more or less works the other way as well, but my opponent has kept his subs away from me to be safe (and consequently has done very little damage with them)
RE: Sub/ASW combat
Nope, sorry... It's bad luck. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but ASW combat routines for WPO and WitP are the same. An additional factor could be the flimsy construction of 1920's submarines.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
RE: Sub/ASW combat
I've been playing the 1926 scenario or my mods of it quite a bit and haven't seen extraordinarily lethal Jap ASW. What I have observed:
- If the Japanese AI spot a sub in a hex, then they seem to be extra careful and the chance of a subsequent intercept by the sub is lower. Moving subs around (on human control) or leaving them in Computer control helps this.
- Allied subs will attack with torpedos in daylight but may make surface attacks at night with gunnery. That's where the "cruiser" subs with six inch deck guns really distinguish themselves.
- Using the Allied subs in an aggressive SLOC interdiction strategy with the historical doctrine "off" does significantly attrit the Japanese merchant marine.
- As Japanese air crews gain experience, they move from just spotting to actively attacking subs with their patrol planes. That effectively pushes the patrol zones back for Allied subs away from high value Japanese ports.
- Harbor insertion raids (Tokyo Bay, Truk, etc.) are very high risk and often result in the loss of the sub.
- The AI will create ASW task forces with 8-10 destroyers and run those through choke points that have lots of Allied subs. These task forces can be lethal in shallow water and damage a sub in deep water badly enough that it should withdraw back to base for repairs.
- By the same token, once the US Clemson's get their early 1927 refit with "Y" guns, the US player can do the same thing and start doing serious damage to any Japanese subs that get spotted near their bases.
- My impression is that the Japanese ASW campaign peaks in 1926 and gets weaker over time as combat attrits the Japanese destroyers so they're left with less capable mine sweepers and patrol boats later in the game. The Allied ASW campaign starts weak and gains strength over the game as upgrades give the allies more effective weapons and lots more ships join the OOB.
- If the Japanese AI spot a sub in a hex, then they seem to be extra careful and the chance of a subsequent intercept by the sub is lower. Moving subs around (on human control) or leaving them in Computer control helps this.
- Allied subs will attack with torpedos in daylight but may make surface attacks at night with gunnery. That's where the "cruiser" subs with six inch deck guns really distinguish themselves.
- Using the Allied subs in an aggressive SLOC interdiction strategy with the historical doctrine "off" does significantly attrit the Japanese merchant marine.
- As Japanese air crews gain experience, they move from just spotting to actively attacking subs with their patrol planes. That effectively pushes the patrol zones back for Allied subs away from high value Japanese ports.
- Harbor insertion raids (Tokyo Bay, Truk, etc.) are very high risk and often result in the loss of the sub.
- The AI will create ASW task forces with 8-10 destroyers and run those through choke points that have lots of Allied subs. These task forces can be lethal in shallow water and damage a sub in deep water badly enough that it should withdraw back to base for repairs.
- By the same token, once the US Clemson's get their early 1927 refit with "Y" guns, the US player can do the same thing and start doing serious damage to any Japanese subs that get spotted near their bases.
- My impression is that the Japanese ASW campaign peaks in 1926 and gets weaker over time as combat attrits the Japanese destroyers so they're left with less capable mine sweepers and patrol boats later in the game. The Allied ASW campaign starts weak and gains strength over the game as upgrades give the allies more effective weapons and lots more ships join the OOB.
RE: Sub/ASW combat
ORIGINAL: Terminus
Nope, sorry... It's bad luck. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but ASW combat routines for WPO and WitP are the same. An additional factor could be the flimsy construction of 1920's submarines.
Terminus are you sure?
I'm seeing other things that look like the old WITP ship & ASW combat results.
Mining (ship mining options) and other things don't work the same as WITP!
RE: Sub/ASW combat
ORIGINAL: pad152
Mining (ship mining options) and other things don't work the same as WITP!
Imo, ASW in WPO is using the same routines as in WITP. But in general due to weapon values ASW in WPO is not that deadly.
Latest WITP changes (1.802/1.804) are not in WPO. [:(] Probably never will be..
Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development
RE: Sub/ASW combat
I`ve been playing the Japanese in the 1922 scenario against the AI and submarine warfare and ASW on both sides has not been terribly effective. I am in October of 1922 and there have only been 1 or 2 (unsuccessful) US sub attacks. My subs are able to sit off of the Hawaii, Australia and Noumea and score occasional hits without any effective ASW response. Perhaps that is because it is the 1922 scenario and the eqpt is not as good, perhaps it is the weakness of the AI, maybe its both.
Does anyone have enough experience playing both time periods (1922, 1926) to give some analysis of how the game plays differently? I`d be interested in hearing about it.
Does anyone have enough experience playing both time periods (1922, 1926) to give some analysis of how the game plays differently? I`d be interested in hearing about it.
RE: Sub/ASW combat
This is only half an answer, but my estimate is that the historical doctrine toggle is probably one of the most important factors.
I've just started another Western Citadel beta (Ahistorical Allied Sub Doctrine, Japanese AI, "Hard" Difficulty). After ten days of action, one of the Tsingtao "S" class subs has already exhausted its torpedos and sunk an AD and a TK (I haven't checked the leader, but that sounds like a lucky and/or good skipper). It's enroute to Manila to re-arm. The remaining two "S" class subs are prowling between Formosa and Kyushu. The Manila subs are split between a picket line off northern Luzon and between Mindanao and the Carolines. They haven't managed any attacks yet, despite large landings at Aparri and Davao. Four forward deployed "S" class subs from Guam - the Western Citadel of the scenario title - have just arrived on station off Tokyo and are playing cat-and-mouse with the Japanese ASW forces - and have managed to sink a second tanker. In transit north, one ran into a destroyer flotilla and scored a hit on a destroyer off Iwo Jima. Roughly eight subs are about 72 hours out from Wake (which fell during the first week of the war) and will assume blockade stations in an arc 100-200 nautical miles west to north of the atoll. "R" class subs are defending Guam from close in and not managed to score any hits on the Japanese battlecruisers that have paid two calls to blow the hell out of the island. The Japanese have prosecuted several ASW attacks in the vicinity of Guam, but so far they have only managed to slightly damage one of the "R" class defenders. There is a tender in Apra Harbor to support operations out of Guam.
I've just started another Western Citadel beta (Ahistorical Allied Sub Doctrine, Japanese AI, "Hard" Difficulty). After ten days of action, one of the Tsingtao "S" class subs has already exhausted its torpedos and sunk an AD and a TK (I haven't checked the leader, but that sounds like a lucky and/or good skipper). It's enroute to Manila to re-arm. The remaining two "S" class subs are prowling between Formosa and Kyushu. The Manila subs are split between a picket line off northern Luzon and between Mindanao and the Carolines. They haven't managed any attacks yet, despite large landings at Aparri and Davao. Four forward deployed "S" class subs from Guam - the Western Citadel of the scenario title - have just arrived on station off Tokyo and are playing cat-and-mouse with the Japanese ASW forces - and have managed to sink a second tanker. In transit north, one ran into a destroyer flotilla and scored a hit on a destroyer off Iwo Jima. Roughly eight subs are about 72 hours out from Wake (which fell during the first week of the war) and will assume blockade stations in an arc 100-200 nautical miles west to north of the atoll. "R" class subs are defending Guam from close in and not managed to score any hits on the Japanese battlecruisers that have paid two calls to blow the hell out of the island. The Japanese have prosecuted several ASW attacks in the vicinity of Guam, but so far they have only managed to slightly damage one of the "R" class defenders. There is a tender in Apra Harbor to support operations out of Guam.
RE: Sub/ASW combat
engineer,
Do you leave your subs on auto or manage them yourself?
Do you leave your subs on auto or manage them yourself?
RE: Sub/ASW combat
Hand management:
1) Keep subs in deep water unless you really need to attrit through a choke point (like the Surigao or Malacca Straits)
2) Move subs to a new hex after they are spotted by aircraft or ASW attacks
3) Picket lines across likely shipping lanes (I've noticed that the AI gets cuter at higher difficulty levels. On easy or regular AI merchant shipping often follows the shortest route and predicting merchant routes is pretty easy. At hard, the AI will put some zig-zags in and may route shipping by a more round-about route. For example, a lot of shipping from Japan to Formosa is tracking east of Okinawa and then breaking west to Taipei or Takao.)
It's a pain, especially since I've been seeing a pretty significant dud rate on the US torpedos.
1) Keep subs in deep water unless you really need to attrit through a choke point (like the Surigao or Malacca Straits)
2) Move subs to a new hex after they are spotted by aircraft or ASW attacks
3) Picket lines across likely shipping lanes (I've noticed that the AI gets cuter at higher difficulty levels. On easy or regular AI merchant shipping often follows the shortest route and predicting merchant routes is pretty easy. At hard, the AI will put some zig-zags in and may route shipping by a more round-about route. For example, a lot of shipping from Japan to Formosa is tracking east of Okinawa and then breaking west to Taipei or Takao.)
It's a pain, especially since I've been seeing a pretty significant dud rate on the US torpedos.
RE: Sub/ASW combat
Hello...
When changed ASW routines in WIP, added changes to WPO. Please note that the two games do not use the exact same ASW code. Different wars and appliances. But, code changes were applied in a fashion.
Bye...
Michael Wood
When changed ASW routines in WIP, added changes to WPO. Please note that the two games do not use the exact same ASW code. Different wars and appliances. But, code changes were applied in a fashion.
Bye...
Michael Wood
ORIGINAL: pad152
ORIGINAL: Terminus
Nope, sorry... It's bad luck. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but ASW combat routines for WPO and WitP are the same. An additional factor could be the flimsy construction of 1920's submarines.
Terminus are you sure?
I'm seeing other things that look like the old WITP ship & ASW combat results.
Mining (ship mining options) and other things don't work the same as WITP!