62 Years ago today...........

[Ron Saueracker]

Being a member of the Royal Canadian Legion I've had the honour to have met many decorated vets from WW2 and Korea and one thing that strikes me is that Commonwealth military personnel rarely win medals compared to US personnel. Just look at the rows upon rows of decorations on US personnel, many of whom have not even seen combat. I went on a military exercise in Grayling, Michigan in 82 and basically everybody in the US units, regardless of rank, had some. More like the Cub/Eagle Scouts achievement badges than medals. The rows upon rows of medals on some guys rival some of the banana republics.[:)]

No offence but it strikes me as somewhat excessive.

[Artmiser]

ORIGINAL: Frank

Sorry, but he is only the highest decorated American.
In other armies there were other men, who were decorated by their countries.

Compared to some German soldiers this guy does not look so impressive.
Eg Rudel, Hartmann,
Georg Wirth: destroyed 16 Soviettanks in one battle


http://www.ritterkreuztraeger-1939-45.d ... -Seite.htm

Frank he was a pilot, I believe that was a mission flying one of the JU87 tank destroyers. And while that was a good mission I dont think it is a good comparison to Murphys action. Standing on a burning tank that could blow up at any time using the MG on top to stop a Infantry company on you own, VS flying a stuka through some flak to blow up a colum of tanks. While both brave they are not in the same class.

Here is one I found, use him next time.

Dr. Franz Bake - Bake joined the military during World War 1 and served as a corporal. After the war he went to dental school. At the outbreak of WWII he was commissioned as a Lt, and soon was promoted and became a company commander. He was an extremely competent leader and in one battle his regiment was credited with destroying 267 soviet tanks, while losing only 5 of his (3 to mechanical failure). He was personally responsible for destroying 79 tanks and 102 anti-tank guns. On his sleeve there are 3 "tank destruction" badges, signifying that he had destroyed 3 tanks individually using only hand-held weapons. Bake was awarded the Swords to his Knights Cross and the Gold Wound Badge. As commander of his own tank, he personally destroyed 97 enemy tanks plus 198 miscellaneous vehicles and anti-tank guns.

[DuckofTindalos]

Rudel was the Stuka pilot, Wirth was a Feldwebel in charge of a battery of AT guns in the 17th Infantry Division; the action with the 16 Soviet tanks took place at Kursk and won him the Knight's Cross.

[Artmiser]

Gotcha, Still like Doc though.

[DuckofTindalos]

Me too... "Der Panzergraf", von Strachwitz, is another...

[Artmiser]

I guess what I Was trying to say is that every army had thier heroes, I would not try and put one over the other.  The circumstance for each are different.

[DuckofTindalos]

Amen...

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i dunno - it could be all sort of some hype, but still - i've heard (witnessed) accounts in the PTO where one guy would routinely take on a company of Japanese troops - and win. And apparently he did it repeatedly. Curiously, iirc, he never got a medal, but he would also refuse to be put up for medals (he said something to the effect of "I can get all the medals I want off dead Japanese."

He could do this because of two things (i think): 1) most soldiers in combat never fire their weapons, and 2) he seemed to be completely insane. His tactics were WAY out of normal, and the Japanese were completely confused by them.

Sounds like John Basilone - from Guadalcanal... read about him sometime.

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i dunno - it could be all sort of some hype, but still - i've heard (witnessed) accounts in the PTO where one guy would routinely take on a company of Japanese troops - and win. And apparently he did it repeatedly. Curiously, iirc, he never got a medal, but he would also refuse to be put up for medals (he said something to the effect of "I can get all the medals I want off dead Japanese."

He could do this because of two things (i think): 1) most soldiers in combat never fire their weapons, and 2) he seemed to be completely insane. His tactics were WAY out of normal, and the Japanese were completely confused by them.

Sounds like John Basilone - from Guadalcanal... read about him sometime.

"Manila John" got the CMH though - might be another guy.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: ctangus

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i dunno - it could be all sort of some hype, but still - i've heard (witnessed) accounts in the PTO where one guy would routinely take on a company of Japanese troops - and win. And apparently he did it repeatedly. Curiously, iirc, he never got a medal, but he would also refuse to be put up for medals (he said something to the effect of "I can get all the medals I want off dead Japanese."

He could do this because of two things (i think): 1) most soldiers in combat never fire their weapons, and 2) he seemed to be completely insane. His tactics were WAY out of normal, and the Japanese were completely confused by them.

Sounds like John Basilone - from Guadalcanal... read about him sometime.

"Manila John" got the CMH though - might be another guy.

Don't recall the guy's name, but he went through the war in obscurity, and was even in the "doghouse" a lot - he was said to present a strange tableu being on KP duty a lot - and he would be sitting there scrubbing pots wearing a chest full of Japanese medals (iirc, he was partial to The Order of the Chrysanthumum).

His tactics were extremely ammo intensive, and he often resorted to using captured weapons and ammo (which almost got him killed one time when an unfamiliar enemy weapon jammed). He was always trying to scrounge ammo, and found he could trade captured "souvenirs" to other guys for ammo. Once, he was lugging around a captured Nambu light MG which was considered a "prize" souvenir, and some tank guy stumbled upon him and really wanted it, so he asked the private (iirc) what he wanted for it. The guy thought for a second, and told him he wanted every round of ammo in the tank (not sure if it was just small arms stuff or included artillery-type rounds). Anyway, it turned out to be 500 rounds, and he made that the "going" price for a Nambu light.

Unfortunately, i read the (library) book (more than once) about 40 years ago - it was called "War is a Private Affair" - (author: Love) out of print for about 47 years, but still available from Amazon. It talked about exploits of privates (iirc) mainly in the Pacific theater, and was at turns quite funny, quite sad, and quite horifying.

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

If there were 50 killed there were probably another 150 wounded. [X(] For me it´s also a bit too many to believe for one fight (like the 241 overall).

The citation as quoted by Kilowatts below runs "he killed or wounded about 50" [italics added]. Even the citation frames it as an estimate. The official US Army history is fond of given round numbers in the hundreds of enemy kills from battalion-sized engagements. I don't see how the authors could have gotten these numbers except from unit reports. And I doubt very much that the S-2's of the world would have the time, opportunity, or inclination to go out and do a body count. IOW's these numbers must have been based on the debriefs of the trigger men and I would attach these with about as much accuracy as pilots reporting A2A kills.

There's another curious thing about the citation: "He was alone and exposed to German fire from three sides". [italics added]. I presume you that in order to win the MoH, one or more witnesses will have to be present. So either a) the citation is at fault and Murphy wasn't alone - then what was this person or people doing? Taking notes? b) the award was based purely on Murphy's own statement, in what case we essentially don't know what happened in that Alsace field (one witness is no witnesses, as my methodology lecturer used to say).

Incidentally, in his autobiography, Murphy implies that the incident was less an act of courage than despair - after 18 months of combat his nerves were thoroughly shot and he was just too physically and mentally worn down to much care whether he lived or died. This at the age of 21.

[String]

ORIGINAL: Artmiser

ORIGINAL: Frank

Sorry, but he is only the highest decorated American.
In other armies there were other men, who were decorated by their countries.

Compared to some German soldiers this guy does not look so impressive.
Eg Rudel, Hartmann,
Georg Wirth: destroyed 16 Soviettanks in one battle


http://www.ritterkreuztraeger-1939-45.d ... -Seite.htm

Frank he was a pilot, I believe that was a mission flying one of the JU87 tank destroyers. And while that was a good mission I dont think it is a good comparison to Murphys action. Standing on a burning tank that could blow up at any time using the MG on top to stop a Infantry company on you own, VS flying a stuka through some flak to blow up a colum of tanks. While both brave they are not in the same class.

Well, to do justice to Rudel he did do several forced landings behind Russian lines and always made it back to his own lines. Several of those were during winter and one of them included a very long (tens of miles) trek over snowy steppes with very little clothing and swimming over the Dniestr river. He also landed behind enemy lines several times to pick up stranded pilots there.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: castor troy

If there were 50 killed there were probably another 150 wounded. [X(] For me it´s also a bit too many to believe for one fight (like the 241 overall).

The citation as quoted by Kilowatts below runs "he killed or wounded about 50" [italics added]. Even the citation frames it as an estimate. The official US Army history is fond of given round numbers in the hundreds of enemy kills from battalion-sized engagements. I don't see how the authors could have gotten these numbers except from unit reports. And I doubt very much that the S-2's of the world would have the time, opportunity, or inclination to go out and do a body count. IOW's these numbers must have been based on the debriefs of the trigger men and I would attach these with about as much accuracy as pilots reporting A2A kills.

There's another curious thing about the citation: "He was alone and exposed to German fire from three sides". [italics added]. I presume you that in order to win the MoH, one or more witnesses will have to be present. So either a) the citation is at fault and Murphy wasn't alone - then what was this person or people doing? Taking notes? b) the award was based purely on Murphy's own statement, in what case we essentially don't know what happened in that Alsace field (one witness is no witnesses, as my methodology lecturer used to say).

Incidentally, in his autobiography, Murphy implies that the incident was less an act of courage than despair - after 18 months of combat his nerves were thoroughly shot and he was just too physically and mentally worn down to much care whether he lived or died. This at the age of 21.

All good observations, but remember that though Murphy was alone in his exposed position, his company was still within range to witness his predicament (i.e. they did not pull back miles away - they were in nearby woods and under cover as I recall reading).
The second point is that (IIRC) - his unit held the field after the action, and a casual check of the battlefield after the action should have been no great difficulty once the Germans withdrew. So getting an accurate estimate of the fallen enemy soldiers on the field should have been easy to do.

[m10bob]

Over a period of time, some people begin to have second thoughts and even doubts of past accomplishments.
Some folks say the Holocaust and the Battle of Britain never happened.
If folks feel that way about such recent events, maybe they will be seen as myths in another 100 years.

Murphy's deeds that day were witnessed by both sides.
The attack (as I recall) was at least company strength, and closer to battalion.
The Germans my father fought were not the cowards to lose less than fifty men to call off an attack.
If you won't appreciate Murphy's deeds, don't denigrate those of the Germans either.[:-]


"CITATION: 2d Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by 6 tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to prepared positions in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone.

Behind him, to his right, 1 of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry.

With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from 3 sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back.
For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted.

He then made his way to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective.

On March 5, 1945, 1st Lieutenant Audie Murphy was called to Nancy, France by order of the 3rd Infantry Division Commander, Major General John "Iron-Mike" O'Daniel. On this day, General O'Daniel presented to 1st Lieutenant Murphy the Distinguished Service Cross and Silver Star.

After 'Iron Mike" pinned the medals on Audie's uniform, he pulled out of his pocket a Medal of Honor. Without giving it to Audie, O'Daniel showed the medal to him and stated that General Alexander Patch, the 7th Army Commander, would soon pin it on Audie during a different ceremony.

He was America's greatest World War II hero, at one point single-handedly holding off 250 German soldiers and six tanks. But despite winning acclaim and stardom, he could never escape the pain and trauma of the conflict that made him a hero. Through clips from his films, newsreel footage and the memories of those who knew him including his sister the heroic but tragic tale of Audie Murphy comes to life."

Biographical Sketch of
AUDIE LEON MURPHY
Courtesy of Richard L. Rodgers
Webmaster of the
Audie L. Murphy Memorial Website

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Over a period of time, some people begin to have second thoughts and even doubts of past accomplishments.
Some folks say the Holocaust and the Battle of Britain never happened.
If folks feel that way about such recent events, maybe they will be seen as myths in another 100 years.

Murphy's deeds that day were witnessed by both sides.
The attack (as I recall) was at least company strength, and closer to battalion.
The Germans my father fought were not the cowards to lose less than fifty men to call off an attack.
If you won't appreciate Murphy's deeds, don't denigrate those of the Germans either.[:-]


"CITATION: 2d Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by 6 tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to prepared positions in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone.

Behind him, to his right, 1 of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry.

With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from 3 sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back.
For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted.

He then made his way to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective.

On March 5, 1945, 1st Lieutenant Audie Murphy was called to Nancy, France by order of the 3rd Infantry Division Commander, Major General John "Iron-Mike" O'Daniel. On this day, General O'Daniel presented to 1st Lieutenant Murphy the Distinguished Service Cross and Silver Star.

After 'Iron Mike" pinned the medals on Audie's uniform, he pulled out of his pocket a Medal of Honor. Without giving it to Audie, O'Daniel showed the medal to him and stated that General Alexander Patch, the 7th Army Commander, would soon pin it on Audie during a different ceremony.

He was America's greatest World War II hero, at one point single-handedly holding off 250 German soldiers and six tanks. But despite winning acclaim and stardom, he could never escape the pain and trauma of the conflict that made him a hero. Through clips from his films, newsreel footage and the memories of those who knew him including his sister the heroic but tragic tale of Audie Murphy comes to life."

Biographical Sketch of
AUDIE LEON MURPHY
Courtesy of Richard L. Rodgers
Webmaster of the
Audie L. Murphy Memorial Website

Not out to denigrate anyone here, Robert. History is about critical enquiry as far as I'm concerned, not apotheosis. With respect I'm not sure the "Audie L. Murphy Memorial Website" can entirely free itself from the suspicion of bias. Honours citations are by their nature celebrations and as an account of what actually happened I would approach them with some causion. The only other account retelling the event that I know of is Murphy's own, which is quite modest. If just half of what we're told took place is true, Murphy displayed extraordinary courage and killed an awful lot of people

ORIGINAL: Big B
All good observations, but remember that though Murphy was alone in his exposed position, his company was still within range to witness his predicament (i.e. they did not pull back miles away - they were in nearby woods and under cover as I recall reading).

If this conjection (?) is true, then others in the company would have been able to fire and/or direct fire onto the oncoming enemy. If so, clearly Murphy then didn't beat off the enemy all on his own. If not, then we'll have to explain why his comrades failed to intervene at this critical junction.

ORIGINAL: Big B
The second point is that (IIRC) - his unit held the field after the action, and a casual check of the battlefield after the action should have been no great difficulty once the Germans withdrew. So getting an accurate estimate of the fallen enemy soldiers on the field should have been easy to do.

Providing it was realised that something extraordinary had happened, and providing anyone cared, and providing anyone actually had the opportunity, then yes, it would be an easy thing to do. Whether anyone would want to spend half an hour so so poking round an open field within range of the enemy is another matter.

[DuckofTindalos]

What, you don't think they'd have policed the battlefield and counted the German dead with the live Germans just over the next ridge?[:D]

Seriously, I have little doubt that this happened, just as I have no doubt that Anders Lassen deserved his VC...

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Seriously, I have little doubt that this happened, just as I have no doubt that Anders Lassen deserved his VC...

I'm not suggesting it didn't , T

[DuckofTindalos]

I know... No worries...

[frank1970]

ORIGINAL: captskillet

January 26, 2007

Audie Murphy wounded

On this day, the most decorated man of the war, American Lt. Audie Murphy, is wounded in France.

I don´t hestiate to think Murphy was a good soldier and did achieve his results.
BUT he was not the most decorated man of the war. He was the most decorated GI.

Nothing more to say.

[DuckofTindalos]

Heh... I just realised it should be January 26th, 1945, but that's not what it says in the first post.[8D]