HnM2 vs HPS FIW

[Magnus]

Here is the picture as promised, to the right the original size and left the larger units, not too large though.

[Panama Red]

I vote for the original size because the larger size troops that you show looks about the same size as one of the HPS Napoleonic mods that also increased the size of the troops and thus "overwelmed" the rest of the trees and buildings so they looked to small again (out of scale to everything).
 
Mine you, the HPS Napoleonic mod maker was able to incorporate more detail in the larger figurines like you have done in your enlarged figurines, but it came at a price of making eveything out of scale when you start adding lots and lots of troops to the battlefield. It also made the HPS then hexes look to small since the modded figurines took up the whole hex and spilled over into adjusent hexes.

[Magnus]

Yes this is my thought also, this is why I showed you the larger ones. The small ones are just as detailed as the larger ones. I think to just increase the trees and rest of the terrain will look better.

[Panama Red]

Magnus:
Thank you, thank you, thank you, if your next batch of figurines is based on what you just showed us, they will be exquisite.[&o]

[Magnus]

As a matter of fact they are, I have a whole new light source for the units setup in my 3D program. Also other things on my list is totally new and better looking buildings, better looking bridges and trees. Overall I'm doing my best to make the terrain look realistic this time. I think the game will feel like a whole new game and people will be pleased with the new updated graphics, hopefully

[DeadInThrench]

Hmmm... if THAT is the size of your new unit artwork... and you are gonna DOUBLE the height and width of the hex... can we get real here???

In any case... I have made some factual points and as far as I am concerned they have been completely ignored.

So, go ahead and do whatever you are gonna do and.... we will all see what the final product looks like.

Well, I won't... at least I won't buy it until I have read reviews of it and what the overall impact of the new artwork is.

Panama Red will buy it but.... will anyone else??

In any case... a waste of my time to make any more comments here so.... again, we will see what you put out when and if you all get something out. I won't be holding my breath.

DiT

[Capitaine]

Frankly, I would agree with Panama Red that the smaller, original figures that are more to scale with terrain -- and perhaps allow more figures present in a formation -- would be better to make the battlefield and formations appear more realistic instead of stylized and cartoony.

As a historical wargamer of this period, I am interested in realistic dimensions formations and scaling so I can get a better feel for what an 18th C. battlefield actually looked like. Having big figures that show detail but distort the look of the field appeals much less to me.

[Tim Coakley]

I am monitoring all the discussion and taking notes. We will not please everyone, but I think you will all be happy with the games overall.

Tim

[Sumter]

I'll buy the new version as long as it has more national armies (I've included my wish list before and will not repeat it here) and is compatible with HNM2: Prussia's Glory.  Better terrain would be a plus as would enhanced AI and more varied artillery types and capacities.  The game editor allows enough modification potential to compensate for some flaws with the game.  Whatever its shortcomings, the game still provides more user control and flexibility than any game for the time period of which I am aware.
 
Sumter 

[anvl]

I would like to see the larger fig size along with other terrain being made larger to be more in scale with the human figs. This would go well with the larger hex\squares and bring out the details that Mag puts into all his graphics with nothing taken away from gameplay or mechanics. Also i would like to see at least 12 figs per unit. At the very least, musicians\sergeants can be added as well, as Mag said. I have always felt that 8 figs per unit was very restrictive and just doesn't do justice to the size these units actually were.

anvil

[Panama Red]

Anvl:
If you want everything scaled correctly then take your pick:
1. Larger figures or
2. More figures

I prefered everything scaled correctly, but with more figures, but then that's just my opinion.

[Magnus]

It's a hard choice guys, I have to consult more with Tim on this matter. One thing is larger figs would include more detail of course into the figs, however the scale would be the same as it is in the current games of HnM2, buildings, trees, bridges are smaller compared to the units. This would apply to the larger hexes too. Keeping the current size I can try to get everything almost in scale with the units. Units won't look too big like they do now. For me it doesn't matter actually since both ways are easy for me to do.

[Panama Red]

Magnus:
It sounds like if you enlarge the figures, you are right back the the problem of why you enlarged the hexes, trees and buildings in the first place, i.e. everything is out of scale again !!!  So my question to you would be, why go through all the work of enlarging the hexes, trees and buildings if there will be no difference in the end from HnM2 ???

[Magnus]

Yes you are right Panama Red, I would be back where I started with the graphics. Surely overall it would be more detailed graphics, but it all would be out of scale.

[Panama Red]

Magnus:
The second question would be if you enlarged the figures, how would you be able to add more figures to the group (as you mentioned that you would like to do) with out overwhelming the hex like some of the HPS Napoleonic figure mods do ???

[DeadInThrench]

The significance of enlarging EVERYTHING... is that when you get to a low level of zoom... then there are 4x more pixels per figure and thus much finer artwork and much better, more impressive, artwork... at the low levels of zoom.

I agree with you that the terrain scale is TOO SMALL but.... if Magnus cannot do terrain artwork that overflows into the other squares.... IMO there is no way he can get the terrain art up to scale. If, however, he indeed got this program enhancement... he could do the terrain art to scale and.... if everything otherwise were doubled.... then he would double the enlarged terrain art as well.

Note that this would do for the terrain art what it would do for everything else.... 4x the number of pixels at low zooms and thus much finer artwork.

But, of course, this would mean a LOT of work for Magnus.

DeadInTrench

[Panama Red]

DiT:
Agreed, that is why I would like to see the game this year versus next year [:)][:)][:)] especialy if he is going to be making all these additional armies for HnM3.

[DeadInThrench]

Anvl... Panama Red is right on this one.... you can't have BOTH larger figurines and more figurines per hex. To get more in a hex you gotta make them smaller and thus you gotta go one way or the other.

If I had my way..... and assuming my preception that the standard of the time was 50 men per line per company (and thus for the 2-line British, 100 men per company, and the 3-line Prussians, 150 men per company... etc)... then, the number of figurines per hex might be best... at 10. This would mean a standard of 10 men per figurine for the British, 15 men per figurine for the Prussians, etc, with battalion or larger sized units just being multiples of this.

If you did this.... and you doubled the height and width of the hex art size... then the figurine art height would be increased by a factor... of 1.8x.. and the figurine width art also increased by a factor of 1.8x. This would mean.... a relative decrease of about 20% in the amount of space that a unit takes up in a hex but... again... there is a tradeoff here... if you go to more figurines in a hex.... then each figurine is gonna be smaller relatively speaking.

Uh... at the risk of opening up another can of worms..... what Magnus could also consider... going to three lines of figurines for Prussian line units and four lines of figurines for Austrians up to but not past Prague/Kolin. Man, this would really pack them in there but, that IS HISTORICALLY accurate for the period and going this route... might just give a better feel for the period than you would have otherwise (e.g. the 3 line Prussian units might just come off looking... more Prussian.... etc).

So... sheesh.. another possibility here.

DeadInThrench

P.S. I would be happy if the relative size of the figurines were the same as it is now... at least a lot happier than if this was decreased by 75%.

[Panama Red]

DiT:
The correct number of ranks is actually 3 for the Austrians and Prussians until the second half of the war when the Prussians were running out of men and reduced it to 2 ranks.

[DeadInThrench]

Panama Red... no doubt about what you are saying.... and I believe Tim has also made the point... and IMO the bottom line here... is that these possible artwork enhancements... are just that... surely not to be seen in any initial releases but possible down the line with an HnM4 or whatever.

IMO... until Magnus gets the program enhancement to allow the terrain art to overflow into other hexes... and intermingle with the unit art.... he can't really do anything about the terrain art being too small.

So, IMO, until and unless he gets that enhancement... better off concentrating on the Swede, Russian, French, etc, unit art because there is a lot of work with the unit art.

Also, Magnus probably gets to do the maps for any new scenarios so, he is probably looking at additional work there.

IMO... any initial releases.... should be basic AI improvement (because the AI is PWM is not good) and an overall plan as to how many games are gonna be released covering the WAS/7YW period and which battles go with each game.

On the other hand... can always make artwork improvements but.... as things stand now... IMO.... the interface and artwork in PWM... ain't bad at all... and better than a lot of other games (the HPS EAW series for one... the original HnM for another).

DeadInTrench