CAP shield in stock / opposite in mods...

[castor troy]

Just had a super carrier engagement against Przemcio under Nik 8.0. Unfortunately dozens of fighters were damaged because of flying cap before but still many got in the air. The result is the COMPLETE opposite of stock. In stock you´ve got a uber cap shield, in the mod you shoot down not even 10 bombers out of 250... [8|][8|]

have a look:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/07/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 79,64

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 185

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 45
F4F-4 Wildcat x 167
SBD Dauntless x 127
TBF Avenger x 114
Avenger I x 36
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 93 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 33 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 109 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 30 damaged
TBF Avenger: 6 destroyed, 41 damaged
Avenger I: 4 destroyed, 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Junyo, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Maya
CV Zuikaku
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Oi
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 1
CVL Ryujo, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Hiyo, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Ryuho, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB Musashi, Torpedo hits 1
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CL Agano, Bomb hits 1
CL Noshiro
CA Chikuma
DD Takanami

Day Air attack on TF at 79,64

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 44

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 4
Avenger I x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
Avenger I: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Hiyo, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Shokaku, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Avenger I launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Avenger I launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 81,64

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 111
A6M3a Zero x 81
B5N Kate x 156

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 12
F4F-4 Wildcat x 39

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 7 destroyed, 47 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 12 destroyed, 18 damaged
B5N Kate: 25 destroyed, 69 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 8 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 27 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Chenango, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Massachusetts, Torpedo hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Washington, Bomb hits 10, on fire
CLAA Ceres
CA Northampton
CLAA Juneau
CLAA San Diego

Day Air attack on TF at 81,64

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 54
A6M3a Zero x 7
B5N Kate x 36

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 4
F4F-4 Wildcat x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 9 destroyed, 36 damaged
B5N Kate: 12 destroyed, 12 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 2 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Indiana, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, heavy damage
CVE Suwannee, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
CLAA Caledon, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CLAA Columbo
BB Nevada, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CL Honolulu

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 79,64

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 35

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 8 destroyed, 6 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Junyo, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Ryuho, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 79,64

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 35

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 27
TBF Avenger x 29
Avenger I x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 10 destroyed, 7 damaged
TBF Avenger: 11 destroyed, 7 damaged
Avenger I: 2 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVE Chuyo
CVE Unyo
CVL Zuiho, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
BB Yamashiro
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 2
CVE Taiyo
CVL Shoho
BB Fuso


Day Air attack on TF, near Wake Island at 82,63

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 21
A6M3a Zero x 59
B5N Kate x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 21 damaged
B5N Kate: 6 destroyed, 10 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Tennessee, Torpedo hits 3
BB California, Bomb hits 2
BB Valiant
BB Idaho
CA Wichita, Torpedo hits 1
CA Quincy, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Day Air attack on TF, near Wake Island at 82,63

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CL Columbia

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Wake Island at 82,63

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 2
A6M3a Zero x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CL Emerald

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 81,64

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 25
A6M3a Zero x 16
B5N Kate x 30

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 3
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 6 destroyed, 13 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged
B5N Kate: 7 destroyed, 16 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Essex
CV Formidable, Torpedo hits 1
BB South Dakota, Bomb hits 1
CVL Princeton

[KDonovan]

I like those results....


Japan
- 7 CV of which...
4 heavy damage/sunk
1 light/moderate damage
- 4 CVL of which...
2 heavy damage/sunk
1 light/moderate damage
- 4 CVE
- 4 BB
- 2 CA

Allied
- 5 CV of which...
2 heavy damage/sunk
1 light/moderate damage
- 1 CVL
- 2 CVE of which...
2 heavy damage/sunk
- 8 BB of which...
2 heavy damage/sunk
2 light/moderate damage
- 2 CA of which...
2 light/moderate damage

while Japan lost the battle (barely) it wasn't the blow out that you would see in stock.

[VSWG]

Yes, but you shot down 140 of 210 fighters in that wave! The Wildcats and Seafires kept the (outnumbered) Zeros busy and paved the way for the bombers.

I'm with KDonovan here: I like the result.

[Przemcio231]

Yech me to becouse i watched my Bombers puting 1000lb's into evile castor's CV's[:D][:D] well good that my CV's Respawn and CVE's are easy to replace...

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

Yes, but you shot down 140 of 210 fighters in that wave! The Wildcats and Seafires kept the (outnumbered) Zeros busy and paved the way for the bombers.

I'm with KDonovan here: I like the result.

It´s more like a par in fighters as 185 Zeroes against 212 attacking fighters isn´t something I would call badly outnumbered. Besides that get the escorts a disadvantage for escorting.

But you will like the following results also I think. Launch 100 Zeros and 100 Betties against 5 Essex class CVs in different TFs and you will see at least 70 Betties passing through cap and launching torps sinking a CV after another. This is the cause of another PBEM that was stopped because my Allied player got frustrated. Game over. In this game we´re encountering CAP that doesn´t fly also and if it´s in the air then the only thing it´s able to do is to damage some attacking bombers and the results are always devastating. This game is stopped because I got more and more frustrated the last months if you see only 40 fighters in the air when 200 are sitting at an airfield. Those 40 fighters are then able to shoot down 10 unescorted bombers out of 100. The result of the carrier engagement was something to be expected but seeing all but 10 bombers coming throug cap? The fact that coordinated attacks are a good thing in stock (with the cap shields) makes it the opposite in the mod because now you launch all your planes against one target, nearly all attack the target and then you see half of your planes xy unable to find target because the fat targets are already sunk.

And the third game that was stopped was my game against John3rd where I had concerns about the obviously problem with cap and a battle where my British CVs (3 of them) were able to sink 4 Jap carriers without a problem because even the Swordfish easily was able to attack his carriers. 55 bi planes sunk then those carriers in mid 42.

Got a stock game and a Nik 5.0 game still running with a BigB 1.3 just started. This last game started is my hope to have a good game running without one trouble being exchanged to another. If it´s a disappointment also then perhaps it´s just time to go on to another game after more then two years of playing with lots of fun but a lot of frustration also with the disappointment of investing so much time.

[mr reed]

Well well this is a bit confusing for me. I might not have run so many games to get my own idea of stock and Nik 8.0 games to get a good picture of what is the more "realistic" and less frustrating. So would you care to give a more detailed pro and cons of each if possible? what about Big Bs mod not so much feed back so far. Is anyone able to share his experience using it

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: mr reed

Well well this is a bit confusing for me. I might not have run so many games to get my own idea of stock and Nik 8.0 games to get a good picture of what is the more "realistic" and less frustrating. So would you care to give a more detailed pro and cons of each if possible? what about Big Bs mod not so much feed back so far. Is anyone able to share his experience using it

You get a good feeling of stock if you look at PzB´s AAR vs. Andy Mac. Short story, if you have 200 Zeroes and 200 bombers attacking a Cap of 200 Hellcats and 20 Corsairs your attack will be obliberated. Perhaps you´ll get 10 bombers through that will be killed by flak. Same goes for early on when 200 Zeroes are on Cap and you try to attack them though it´s more UBER Cap by the Allied CVs later in the war.

In Nik 5.0 (I LOVE IT!! [&o]) you may still have battles that seem to bloody but you get leakers. What I´ve observed in my PBEM so far (late 43) is the fact that you´ve got chances to get bombers through if there are enough of them with escorts. Attacking: 150 escorts + 100 bombers will probably get 30-40 attacking. With the result of a couple of hits. Not really devastating for the Allied but also dangerous enough not to do weird things.

In Nik 8.0 you´ve got the problem that fighters getting damaged of flying cap without fights. It´s more a problem for the Allied it seems but my experience isn´t great either when I´ve got 200 Tojos defending a base and I only get 40 - 60 up in the air. 100 Incoming 4E bombers at a range of 10 -12 hexes would take some losses (perhaps 10) but would destroy a large amount of planes on the ground if recon was done before. Flak is more dangerous then fighters. Though if you go up to 20000 feet you´re pretty "safe" and still can hit something if you bring enough bombers. And you don´t have leakers, you have many times getting MOST of the attacking bombers through. This leads to results like the one I posted above, or like 70 out of 100 Betties attacking Allied CVs scoring hits that sum up quickly over the months. And most attacks - if big enough - are just devastating. In stock, devastating to the attacker, in 8.0 devastating for the defender as the planes can be replaced though CVs take some time. At least that´s my experience of three PBEMs under 8.0 (all in all about 2 years in game time).

I can´t say much about BigB´s 1.3 because I´ve just started with the first days.

[mr reed]

rather disturbing results indeed ! one could only notice than on the long run, which I have not been able to do with Nikmod 8.0. Would you then agree that this is a major "problem" that "overshadows" the rest of the mod tweaks. Thanks for these infos. Others seasoned players should let us know about their experiences as well

[Miller]

The only game I have playing is under Nikmod 8.0b. The two major problems are:

1) Any fighter unit running say for example 50% CAP will have between 30-70% fighters damaged after a few days flying.

2) The increased durability of all fighters has stopped the "everyone dies" air combats but has rendered the lightly armed Jap fighters useless (Claude/Oscar/Nate).

I believe Nik is aware of this and is looking into it.

[Nikademus]

He is.

[;)]

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

It´s more like a par in fighters as 185 Zeroes against 212 attacking fighters isn´t something I would call badly outnumbered. Besides that get the escorts a disadvantage for escorting.

I never said badly outnumbered either, don't put words into my mouth. [:-]

But you will like the following results also I think. Launch 100 Zeros and 100 Betties against 5 Essex class CVs in different TFs and you will see at least 70 Betties passing through cap and launching torps sinking a CV after another.

I cannot comment on this unless you say how many Allied planes were flying CAP.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: castor troy

It´s more like a par in fighters as 185 Zeroes against 212 attacking fighters isn´t something I would call badly outnumbered. Besides that get the escorts a disadvantage for escorting.

I never said badly outnumbered either, don't put words into my mouth. [:-]

But you will like the following results also I think. Launch 100 Zeros and 100 Betties against 5 Essex class CVs in different TFs and you will see at least 70 Betties passing through cap and launching torps sinking a CV after another.

I cannot comment on this unless you say how many Allied planes were flying CAP.

Didn´t say that you said badly! I don´t call this badly outnumbered. And everything that isn´t badly outnumbered (like 2:1) didn´t make much of a difference in my games.

between 100 and 150. Mixed F6F and some F4U.

[Miller]

Can I just bump this please for the attention of Nik. Any joy with regards 8.0 and the excess damaged a/c when flying CAP?

I am getting sqds of 36 a/c down to just 10 or less undamaged after flying only 2 days of LRCAP. Does not seem specific to any a/c type, leadership level or supply levels at the base. Seems totally random and effects some sqds more than others. Can supply a gamesave if required.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Miller

Can I just bump this please for the attention of Nik. Any joy with regards 8.0 and the excess damaged a/c when flying CAP?

Yep....much joy. 9.0 out after a weekend's worth of attention. Available @ Spooky's site.

[Sneer]

i don't like results where 70%+ fighters fighting is lost
i don't like results where there is almost no loss among attack planes / no flak or what

it is just opposite from stock
but it doesn't mean it is balanced 

[Nikademus]

Try it and see.

[Nemo121]

Or try RHS or Empires Ablaze ( which has taken the RHS A2A model and slightly modified it - EA will be a bit bloodier ). If you read my AAR you can see a large number of instances in which bombers have broken through very strong CAPs and launched attacks. There's no problem with planes becoming damaged from flying CAP and you do get leakers. Admittedly the hard-coded problem with combat involving over 50 planes a side being too bloody is still present but it is significantly reduced.