What is your favorite WWII plane?

[Paul Vebber]

To keep it seperate from the tank thread...\


Rune Iversen -> RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? (2/5/2007 1:47:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

Can you please explain to me how the best fighter in WW2 was a crap?
Please explain[8D]


Just how well did it do vs. Allied fighters? Answers on a postcard please.....







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Paul Vebber -> RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? (2/5/2007 2:30:53 PM)

I would be interested to hear by what criteria it was "best" fighter?

"Best manned anti-bomber missile" perhaps - but its doctrine specifically ruled out engageing allied fighters because of poor acceleration, and maneuverability. GOing fast in a straight line through bomber formations was its principle strength.






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Twotribes -> RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? (2/5/2007 2:41:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

I would be interested to hear by what criteria it was "best" fighter?

"Best manned anti-bomber missile" perhaps - but its doctrine specifically ruled out engageing allied fighters because of poor acceleration, and maneuverability. GOing fast in a straight line through bomber formations was its principle strength.


Also didnt it have a very short flight time as well?






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freeboy -> RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? (2/5/2007 3:28:35 PM)

Again we are using the word best without saying best at what? Like, My dalmattion is better than my lab chow, at what? The lab loves water and is no sissy, my dall is sweet but a little too timid. So when it comes to tanks planes etc, please say "best at" for instance I think the top ace of the war, had something like over 200 kills was flying 262 at the end of the war agains us bombers.. will need to look that up .. best all around fighter? figher bomber intercepter, escort? the list goes on! Tanks too, Bes armor, best optics, best ability under 550yds.. here the rounds per min and turret rotation are going to be big plusses for a sherman... best used in tactical doctrin by country etc.






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IronDuke -> RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? (2/5/2007 3:40:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

Can you please explain to me how the best fighter in WW2 was a crap?
Please explain[8D]


Just how well did it do vs. Allied fighters? Answers on a postcard please.....



I thought it was rather like the best Kats, resource hungry, on the edge of technology (therefore unreliable) and difficult to maintain and even fly. However, in the right hands it would take anything in the Allied inventory flown by anyone.

It's problems were the take off was tricky, the engines burned out after a handful of missions, it was a sitting duck during landing (landings that could never be protected given allied numerical superiority) and training in it usually amounted to sitting in the cockpit for 20 minutes looking at the controls before being handed your goggles.

I thought the earliest missions, though, where the Reich's best remaining pilots were converted to fly them weren't too bad. Its straight line speed should have meant it was exceptionally difficult to dogfight and shoot down since the ability to just sprint away from a pursuer in a dogfight served the Allies well in the pacific and would have done here.

The most revealing gun camera film of them is never in a dogfight, but landing in a slow deliberate descent before being peppered with cannon fire from behind. The chief British test pilot flew one after the war and rated it better than anything else he flew, and he flew or evaluated just about everything the allies put in the air.

regards,
IronDuke

To answer Freeboy's question. At those sometimes moments when everything worked, it was the best air superiority fighter of the war since it was so much quicker.






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Speedy -> RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? (2/5/2007 4:09:48 PM)

Here I am finding myself post in this topic now about Planes[8|]

The 262 was a technological step forward. It was well suited at shooting down enemy bombers due to it's heavy cannon load, R4M rockets and exceptional speed making deflection shooting by defensive gunners on the bombers much harder.

The cons of this planes though are:

1.) The sheer speed of the plane meant pilots had to be either veteran flyers OR very used to flyign the 262 to be able to fly at 90% speed towards an enemy target and successfully engage it.

2.) Not overly maneuverable. The problem here is that IF caught at lower speeds (against a Mustang or Tbolt) you could forget out maneuvering these boys. A common tactic for engaging the 262 in a2a combat would be for a US fighter jock to wait for a 262 to make it's pass at bombers and then knowing the 262 would have to slow down to turn back towards the bombers engage the 262 then = slow turning circle and vulnerable at those lower speeds. Linked into this of course was the landing pattern (an even more common attack routine for US fighter pilots) whereby Ta152's and Dora's used to fly cover for the slow Swallows.

3.) Engine complexity. Very complex engines that had to be re-built on a not-infrequent basis. They allowed limited flying time and required a lot of work by engineers.

Overall my thoughts on the 262 are:

I respect the plane. It was a step in plane evolution. It could function in a bomber killing role very well. The R4M's were DEADLY. It was basically 'immune' to bomber defensive fire. It was NOT a dogfighter though so forget it against enemy fighters unless attacking an unaware enemy that you can attack from a quick pass.

All in all. A very good plane IMO but to have any BIG war impact it would need to be mass produced along with 190D's or 152H's flown by decent pilots (to tackle the fighters) to accomplish an air war 'change' IMO.........






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mdiehl -> RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? (2/5/2007 4:10:20 PM)

Near as I can tell the combat results produced by the ME262 were unspectacular. Less than one allied a.c. of any type shot down per ME262 destroyed in the air (to include of course those shot down landing or taking off). It seems to have been of very little value other than as a kind of dragster -- insufficient endurance to be strategically effective.

Definitely a techno marvel and introduced a vision for the future, but the Lufwaffe would have been better off producing more radial engined types of the FW-190/TA-(iirc 152) type rather than wasting production time & resources on the ME-262 (a not-ready-for-prime-time jet).

Clearly the best fighters of the war were radial engine types. A person could not go wrong picking from among the US F4U, P-47, German Fw-190/TA-152 types. I prefer the radial ones on account of their mechanical reliability and good damage-survival characteristics. If one includes hydro-cooled in-lines then one should add U.K. Spitfire types and the Merlin engined P-51 types.

[hawker]

262 was step ahead of time
Father of jet planes

Is that criteria satisfied you enough Paul

US and Soviet manhunt for german scientists by the end of war,why? Because they are step ahead in many areas than US and Soviets

262 was JET FIGHTER Rune,first JET FIGHTER. So,it was no CRAP,it was newborn era

THAT IS WAY 262 WAS THE BEST PLANE,not because air victories

I just copy my post here[:)]
Lets go again[;)]

[mlees]

My "favorite" fighter is the Corsair. (Known as the X-Wing in WiTP...)

I grew up on the "Blacksheep" TV series. [:)] Loved 'em. Watched an episode recently (I forget which channel), seems a little campy now... hehe

[morvwilson]

I have done the same thing a few times. Check out some old TV show I used to love and now I think "I actually used to think this was funny!?[&:]"
 
As for my favorite plane, I have a tough time choosing between the P-38 and the Spitfire. As to the question "Which I like better?" my answer is a very definite "Yes"[8D]

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber



IronDuke -> RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? (2/5/2007 3:40:19 PM)


I thought it was rather like the best Kats, resource hungry, on the edge of technology (therefore unreliable) and difficult to maintain and even fly. However, in the right hands it would take anything in the Allied inventory flown by anyone.

They were in the "right hands". They still died, and unlike they Kats they arguably had very little to show for it.

[mdiehl]

Actually the first jet fighter prototype was some HE variant in 1939, but the UK (in 1941) had its own independently created X-type jets in 1941 and the US in 1942.
 
The ME-262 was strategically ineffective and greatly limited by its duration/airtime. By 1945 it had been substantially surpassed by the Lockheed P-80A Shooting Star (in production in 1944). Unlike the Luftwaffe, however, the USAAF was not desperate enough to throw the P-80 into combat until the kinks in the P-80's engine had been thoroughly fixed. Had the two met regularly in A2A combat, the P-80A would have eaten the ME-262's lunch.
 
The one and only one area in which the ME262 showed real innovation was in wing-sweeping. Kudos where it is due.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: hawker


262 was JET FIGHTER Rune,first JET FIGHTER. So,it was no CRAP,it was newborn era

THAT IS WAY 262 WAS THE BEST PLANE,not because air victories

It was a piece of crap. Tell me again: If the allies were so keen on german designs, how come that neither the MIG 15, nor the F86 (or the Hunter for that matter) resembled the 262 in any way, shape or form?

As for contemporary designs, the Meteor had it beaten by a mile, as evidenced by it´s post war record.

[hawker]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: hawker


262 was JET FIGHTER Rune,first JET FIGHTER. So,it was no CRAP,it was newborn era

THAT IS WAY 262 WAS THE BEST PLANE,not because air victories

It was a piece of crap. Tell me again: If the allies were so keen on german designs, how come that neither the MIG 15, nor the F86 (or the Hunter for that matter) resembled the 262 in any way, shape or form?

As for contemporary designs, the Meteor had it beaten by a mile, as evidenced by it´s post war record.

You simply dont understand,US and USSR hunt for german scientists at the end of war because germans was in many way more advanced then US and USSR scientists.
Remember Werner von Brown?

I can debate on this topic with normal people.

P.S. You are on ignore because you insult my country and people in other thread,i gave you time to apologize but uneducated idiot remain uneducated idiot

[BAL]

I like the P-47 Thunderbolt.  Looks like a plane you could feel safe in.  [:D]

[Twotribes]

Favorite? I like the looks of the P-51. So "favorite" would be that one.

[freeboy]

OK my favorite? Since I am limited to not flying ANY of these planes, I wouldsay the sexiest is the Spit, The best all around the 51, tie for ground attack between 38 and the All wood, can it be true? British ? darn, oldhimers getting to me.. what is that plane? ok, the Misquito! Most innovative? ask an ingeneer, but may have been the jets, any one, or the rocket plane the Germans hade.
Best unknown, all those great red army designs, didn't they mount some huge ass cannon in one or two?

Ok, my all time favorite in show: The one the only fw190... for no really good reason other than I like it.

[Big B]

FAVORITE? (as opposed to "best").

Very tough question. Hurricanes' I always thought looked cool. BF 109s look so menacing. Lagg 5s look pretty cool. I always liked the Macchi C.202, But I think I'd like to have this one as a toy... Merlin engined P-40 F (national pride and all that)

[Paul Vebber]

262 was step ahead of time
Father of jet planes

Is that criteria satisfied you enough Paul

So the Wright Flyer was ahead of its time, and the father of piston engine planes. Doesn't make it "best" anything...

Here was a plane way ahead of its time [:'(]

Designed with specially reinforced wings to slice through other planes [X(] Though the pilots prone position in the nose doesn't seem to be a ery smart choice gien that emplyment concept...[:-]

But its would have been the first steath fighter

[Ursa MAior]

Now it is a chance to give credti where credit is due. Thank God none of these really flew.

I wonder where the above idea comes from?
http://www.luft46.com/gotha/gop60a.html

Prone postion
http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/berlin9.html

F-117 anyone?
http://www.luft46.com/gotha/gop60a.html

This might look also familiar XB-49 maybe?
http://www.luft46.com/horten/ho18a.html

P-61 Black widow in 1942?
http://www.luft46.com/mess/me109z.html

X-4,5 famliar from somewhere?
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/hist ... index.html

For fans of Crimson Skies
http://www.luft46.com/henschel/hsp75.html
http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp170.html

My favourite (the best looking)
http://www.luft46.com/arado/are555s.html


One more thing. The Schwalbe was not able to use its full potential (in allied fan boy terms crap) beause of

a. the lack of chrome and nickel, the heat resistence of the turbineblades were not sufficient
b. allied air superiority (ALL planes are vulnarable during take off and landing).

Period.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: hawker


262 was JET FIGHTER Rune,first JET FIGHTER. So,it was no CRAP,it was newborn era

THAT IS WAY 262 WAS THE BEST PLANE,not because air victories

It was a piece of crap. Tell me again: If the allies were so keen on german designs, how come that neither the MIG 15, nor the F86 (or the Hunter for that matter) resembled the 262 in any way, shape or form?

As for contemporary designs, the Meteor had it beaten by a mile, as evidenced by it´s post war record.

Why bother with him Hawker[&:] - the first sentence says enough about him. I wrote few his posts and still think that this Dane is kidding...or he is just smoking something????

Crap??? hehehe, very funny...

Speedy, nice analysis. How about mixing Me262 with Fw-190 for attack on enemy formations ... using such tactic should improve German performance?

(yeah i know, it is what if...but...?)

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

MIG 15, nor the F86 (or the Hunter for that matter) resembled the 262 in any way, shape or form?

If you persist the MIG's form is a direct follower of FW Ta183 with a rolls royce nene engine (http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183-i.html).
Dunno about the Sabre though.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Swordfish

Wow, what can you say about that thing?

Even the lowly Douglas Devastator outperformed it in every area except range.

In the right place, at the right time?

Narvik, Taranto, Bismark, Malta and the Atlantic convoys suggest yes, indeed.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Paul Vebber]

SOme stats please comparing the Me262 to say a P-51, or even a La-7 (whose pilot shot down an Me-262 "because he tried to turn with me").

Me-262, like many early jets - got one chance in combat and realied on surprise or formation flying to ensure the adversary did not maneuer to avoid. But if it was such a good fighter, again, why did its doctrine stress NEVER getting into a dogfight with other fighters?

It was certainly a "cool" plane - and very fast, but was sort of the Mig-25 of its era - everyone thought it was far superior than it actually turned out being...

[Ursa MAior]

Because their poor quality engines Which blew up if you gave suddenyl full throttel which in dogfihght happens quite often.

That easy.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: hawker



You simply dont understand,US and USSR hunt for german scientists at the end of war because germans was in many way more advanced then US and USSR scientists.
Remember Werner von Brown?

To a degree, yes. However they failed to this to produce a jet design that was in any way durable or feasible for posterity. The M262 remains what it was: A half assed excuse of a jet fighter compared to it´s contemporaries.

I can debate on this topic with normal people.

P.S. You are on ignore because you insult my country and people in other thread,i gave you time to apologize but uneducated idiot remain uneducated idiot

[8D]