Some radar questions

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Andrew Brown
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Some radar questions

Post by Andrew Brown »

I have been looking at radar devices lately, as part of a planned CHS scenario error-fix update, and I have a couple of questions to do with some of the naval radar types used by the USA:
  • SR radar was apparently used by a few US Battleships early in the war. However I have not been able to find any information on this type of radar. Was it just an air search radar? Or could it also be used to detect surface targets? What type of range did it have? Did it have another designation?
  • SH radar was apparently used on Allied cargo ships. I believe it was a surface search and navigation radar. How common was it for cargo ships to carry radar during the war? When did the use of such radar become more common? Was SH the most common type so used?
  • The SC is usually called an air search radar. However in the game it is a surface search radar. It might be a good idea to make the SC radar an air search instead of a surface search radar in the game. Does anyone have any opinion on that?
  • I have read reports that state USS Washington used SG radar at the Second naval battle of Guadalcanal, but the listing of US battleship radar that I have (and posted on these forums a few times) does not list Washington with SG radar. How any other US battleships had SG radar?

If anyone is able to help with any of these questions I would be very appreciative.
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BigJ62
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by BigJ62 »

Some notes I compiled :
Radar ("Radio Detection And Ranging") was a revolutionary development that eventually altered nearly every aspect of naval combat. Aircraft carriers generally employed air search and fire control radars. Air search radar probed for aircraft. While maximum range varied with the target's altitude and size, naval air search radar of the time was capable of detecting aircraft 60-100 statute miles away: sometimes more. Air search radar was often augmented with height finder radar - to determine a target's altitude - and IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) systems, an automated mechanism for distinguishing friendly aircraft from those of the enemy.

CXAM-1 Search Radar
Description:
A large mattress-like antenna, the CXAM-1 was an improved version of the Navy's prototype search radar, the CXAM. Enterprise's sister ship, Yorktown CV-5 was the first US carrier fitted with radar, a CXAM. Installations of CXAM-1 sets began in late 1941, with some sets remaining in service through 1943.

Range:
Capable of detecting large aircraft at 10,000 feet altitude at 70 nautical miles (80.5 statute miles), or fighters (small aircraft) at 10,000 feet altitude at 50 nautical miles (57.5 statute miles).
Accuracy:
200 yards.

SC-2 Search Radar
Description:
A second-generation air search radar, the SC-2 was approximately half the size of the CXAM-1. It included an integral IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) system and limited altitude detection capabilities. An SC-2 set was installed as Enterprise's secondary search radar in late 1942, mounted on the starboard side of her funnel.

Range:
Capable of detecting large aircraft at 10,000 feet altitude at 80 nautical miles (92 statute miles), or fighters at 10,000 feet altitude at 40 nautical miles (46 statute miles).
Accuracy:
100 yards.

SK Search Radar
Description:
Essentially an SC-2 with a larger (CXAM-sized) antenna. Capable of detecting a medium bomber at 10,000 feet and 100 nautical miles, Enterprise's SK set was installed during her fall 1943 refit at Bremerton, Washington, replacing the CXAM-1 set, along with an SM height finder. The SC-2 secondary search radar was retained.

Range:
Capable of detecting large aircraft at 10,000 feet altitude at 100 nautical miles (115 statute miles). The SM height finder, located atop and at the rear of Enterprise's tripod mast, could detect large aircraft at 10,000 feet altitude at 50 nautical miles (58 statute miles).
Accuracy:
100 yards; SM accuracy was 200 yards, or 500 feet in elevation.

This site gives a little info :
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_Radar_WWII.htm

And here's a better one :
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-1.htm
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by treespider »

Command at Sea by Clash of Arms games has some excellent data...here is a sample.



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rtrapasso
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by rtrapasso »

The SC is usually called an air search radar. However in the game it is a surface search radar. It might be a good idea to make the SC radar an air search instead of a surface search radar in the game. Does anyone have any opinion on that?

It seems clear that SC was used for surface search as well... probably best classify it as a dual purpose radar.
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by treespider »

SC Seems to be classified as both...



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RE: Some radar questions

Post by rtrapasso »

i wonder if someone was just calling search radar SR?? i'll try checking A Radar History of World War II when i get home tonight...*

BTW, according to Lundgren, some US Cruisers had CXAM(-1?) radar (it was used as a backup when the CXAM(-1?) radars on the US CVs wasn't working correctly during Battle of Eastern Solomons.) Dunno if i've seen this listed (not seen it in stock... not sure about CHS).

*EDIT: just noticed SR, SR-1, 2, 3, 5, 6 and a couple other unreadable variants (?SRa, ?SRb) on Treespider's last post (which crossed with this one).
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rtrapasso
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by rtrapasso »

Here is a sight giving some info on US Radars, and installation on BBs (and when): United States of America
Information on Radar Equipment of World War II
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_Radar_WWII.htm
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rtrapasso
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by rtrapasso »

This is from the BB section:

"BB-33 Arkansas

1942 : SRa / SC
1944 : SRa / SK
1945 : SK , SRa

BB-34 New York

1938 : XAF /
1942 : SC, SRa / SRa
1944 : SRa / SRa
1945 : SK /

BB-35 Texas

1938 : CXZ /
1942 : SRa / SRa
1943 : SRa / SC , SRa
1948 : SRa / SK , SRa

BB-36 Nevada

1942 : SRa / SRa
1943 : SK , SRa / SRa
1945 : SK , SRa / SRa

BB-37 Oklahoma

No radar installed before Pearl Harbor

BB-38 Pennsylvania

1941 : CXAM /
1943 : SRa / SRa , CXAM
1945 : SK-2 , SP

BB-39 Arizona

No radar installed before Pearl Harbor

BB-40 New Mexico

1942 : SRa / SRa
1944 : SK , SRa / SRa

BB-41 Mississippi

1944 : SRa / SK , SRa
1949 : ? / SPS 8A
1954 : SPS 6 / SPS 8A
1956 : SPS 6 / SPS 8B

BB-42 Idaho

1942 : SRa / SRa
1944 : SK / SRa

BB-43 Tennessee

1942 : SC / SRa (before rebuild)
1943 : SK / SC-2
1945 : SK / SC-2

BB-44 California

1941 : CXAM /
1944 : SK / SP

BB-45 Colorado

1942 : SC , SRa / SRa
1945 : SK, SRa

BB-46 Maryland

1942 : SC /
1944 : SK , SRa / SRa

BB-48 West Virginia

1941 : CXAM /
1944 : SK /
1945 : SK-2 /

BB-55 North Carolina

1942 : CXAM /
1943 : SK /
1945 : SK-2 / SC-2
1962 : SK-2 / SP

BB-56 Washington

1942 : SC /
1944 : SK /
1945 : SK-2 / SP

BB-57 South Dakota

1943 : 2 x SRa , SC-2 /
1944 : SK

BB-58 Indiana

1943 : SC /
1944 : SC , SRa /
1945 : SK

BB-59 Massachusetts

1943 : SC-2 /
1944 : SK /
1965 : SK-2 / SC-2

BB-60 Alabama

1942 : SC /
1943 : SK /
1945 : SK-2 / SR
1964 : SK-2 /SR

BB-61 Iowa

1943 : SK, SRa /
1945 : SK-2, SC-2 /
1950 : SPS-6 / SP
1952 : SPS-6 / SP
1958 : SPS-6 / SPS-8A

BB-62 New Jersey

May 1943 - May 1945 : SK / SG (Also SG on forward FC tower)
June 1945 - February 1952 : SK-2, SG / SP
April 1952 - August 1954 : SPS-6, SPS-10 / SP
December 1954 - deactivation in 1957 : SPS-6, SPS-10 / SPS-8A HF
Reactivation in 1967 - deactivation in 1968 : SPS-6, SPS-10 /
Reactivation in 1982 - deactivation in 1990 : SPS-49 /

BB-63 Missouri

1944 : SK-2 /
1947 : SK-2 / SP
1950 : SG-6 / SP
1951 : SPS-6 / SP
1954 : SPS-6 / SPS-8A

BB-64 Wisconsin

1944 : SK /
1947 : SK / SC-2
1952 : SPS-6 / SPS-8A
1954 : SPS-6 / SPS-8A
1957 : SPS-6 / SPS-8A

Notes:

XAF: Large sized rectangular antenna, first installed in BB New York 1938, later removed.

CXZ: Similar to XAF. First installed on Texas, later removed.

CXAM: Installed 1940-1 on some older US battleships, later removed.

SC: rectangular antenna with a greater width.

SR : Small sized but longish antenna shaped as an inverted V, installed in older battleships, some arrangements with two antennas were known.

SG: Small sized navigational and surface search antenna. Small profile resulted in little mention when ship recognition addressed.

SK: Large, rectangular, elongated antenna with headpiece. Mainly used on carriers, destroyers and escorts. Rarely used on battleships.

SK-2: Large, round parabolic antenna with wide open work metal grating. Replaced SK in most battleships, cruisers and aircraft carriers by end of war.

SP: A smaller sized rouind parabolic antenna with closer grating, introduced in last part of war as secondary antenna system. Always carried in after position.

SG-6: One of the first post war antennas. Installed in limited numbers only and soon replaced by SPS-6

SPS-6: One of the larger air-search antennas of the SPS series. Introduced in post war years, installed on numerous ships including Iowa class which were the only battleships to be so equipped.

SPS-8A: "Highfinder" surveillance radar system. Installed on Iowa class around 1950, replacing SP. Older version installed on AG-128 Mississippi in 1949 and some aircraft carriers

SPS-10: Carried forward with SPS-6 radar. Large rectangular system along with the ECCM frames.

SPS-49: Surface Search radar."
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by rtrapasso »

Also stumbled on this article, which may be useful for Brit types:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wo ... aval_radar
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by Andrew Brown »

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

This is from the BB section:

[snip list of BB radars]

Thanks. That is the list where I saw the SR listed, and after which I could not find any further info, thus my question about SR performance (and verification of actual existence!) in this thread.
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by rtrapasso »

Norman Friedman has a book on "Naval Radar" which i suspect might answer some questions, but it is $200 used from Amazon... [X(]
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by rtrapasso »

i think i'll see if i can find a library copy since i need to swing by there tonight anyway - maybe i can get an interlibrary loan...
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by Andrew Brown »

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
The SC is usually called an air search radar. However in the game it is a surface search radar. It might be a good idea to make the SC radar an air search instead of a surface search radar in the game. Does anyone have any opinion on that?

It seems clear that SC was used for surface search as well... probably best classify it as a dual purpose radar.

Unfortunately a single radar device cannot be both surface search and air search in WitP. So these are the possibilities:
[ol]
[*]Leave the SC a surface search only radar, as it is currently.
[*]Make it an air search radar instead.
[*]Represent the presence of SC (and similar dual role radars - I believe that the CXAM could also be used for surface search, as could other air search radars most likely) with TWO radar devices - one surface search and the other air search.
[/ol]

Whether option 1 or 2 is the best for a particular radar would depend on its primary use, and what effect it would have on the game if the radar could NOT be used in its "secondary" role. So going back to the SC radar - Was it primarily a surface search or air search radar? What would happen in-game if it was an air search instead of a surface search radar?

Option 3 is a way around the problem, but is not my preferred option, unless not doing this results in too great a deficiency as compared to actual radar capabilities.

There are also two ways of applying option 3: Add other radar devices even if not really carried by a ship, or making two devices for one radar, e.g. an SC(s) for surface search, and an SC(a) for air search. The latter method is more accurate, but requires two device slots for a single radar device, which is not a good thing at all.

By the way I also think that the Japanese Type 21 may perhaps be better represented as an air search rather than a surface search radar, and these considerations apply to it as well.



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RE: Some radar questions

Post by Andrew Brown »

ORIGINAL: treespider

Command at Sea by Clash of Arms games has some excellent data...here is a sample.

Thanks. Very useful information!
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by DaveB »

Hmmm,
oddly enough I have a copy of Naval Radar, it cost me £18. (I think the fact that I bought it new around 1981/82 might be a factor here, I'm mildly amused to find I own such a valuable book....) SC was apparently an attempt to reduce antenna size as the CXAM 'big mattress' was too large for anything smaller than a CA. Power then had to be doubled to get SC to match CXAM performance, unfortunately... 'range performance was poor' (I quote from p30).
SC is described as P band, so freq range 200-500MHz (mc/s as Freidman tends to express it) and from the description as producing a vertically more diffuse beam in comparison to other air search radars such as SK it would suggest that the air search function is really more a case of the beam being poorly defined in the vertical plane, which also explains the poor range as the radiated energy is going down your chosen beamwidth in azimuth but going every which way vertically at the same time.... equals only a small amount hitting anything down the bearing in question. If your radiated energy is spread vertically then you won't get the range that a tightly formed beam can provide.
 
Lots of page refs to SC, picture of it p146 shows a rectangular mesh, it's 8.5 x 7.5 ft in size, the beam is 30 degrees by 40 - ranges are quoted at 30nm on a bomber, 25 on a fighter, 10 on a BB and 3 on a DD. Personally I'd call 30 x 40 degrees of beam (bearing in mind that there were probably all sorts of horrible sidelobes all over the shop etc as well) more a case of a casual nod in the direction of a contact than an actual bona fide contact report <g>
&nbsp;
Intro'd late 1941 Replaced pdq (Jan 42+) by increased power SC-1 when people noticed the range had nosedived, as noted at the start. For any other ferretty types prf 60, 5 microsecond pw, arp 12.0s
&nbsp;
SR is from late war, 100 delivered by march 1945, large mattress style scanner, claimed detection range of 110nm on a bomber at 10,000ft, 38 remained in service up to 1961.
&nbsp;
SH - 'an unsuccessful S-band search and fire control set for cargo vessels....' Apparently spinning at 180 rpm inside a radome, PPI display and good for 15nm on&nbsp;a battleship. You've got to admire statements like that, with it's implication that a really lucky AK only needs to sneak up to 15nm from the&nbsp;Jap invader to detect him and then he'll get what's coming to him.... - you'd think that the 18" shell straddle would let you know you were close enough, wouldn't you?
&nbsp;
200 ordered, 50 delivered by June 1943 at which point SH was abandoned in favour of existing alternatives.
&nbsp;
Overall it looks like SC is air search but I wouldn't fiddle, SH I wouldn't bother with, SR is a good upgrade for a ship radar.
&nbsp;
DaveB
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Regarding air and surface designations in the game-

Air radar only means that it is mounted on airplanes, and surface radar is on ships & LCU's. The determinant for what it detects (air or surface) is the pentration value 'trigger' of 0 or 500.
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by rtrapasso »

Stopped off at the library and requested a copy by intra-library loan - only 89 libraries in the area have copies... [X(] [8D]
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by rtrapasso »

SR is from late war, 100 delivered by march 1945, large mattress style scanner, claimed detection range of 110nm on a bomber at 10,000ft, 38 remained in service up to 1961.



Curious - this seems to conflict with the reference we have - SRa being on BBs in 1942... seems to imply that SR came AFTER SRa...
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by DaveB »

Hi,
re the SR/SRa point - I'm merely providing the info from my copy of Friedman's book as I'm sure is understood, as this stuff rather predates my own EW career.... there's vert definitely a conflict, going back to the book and reading further on SRa produces (on p99) the phrase 'as early as 1943 work had begun on SR, a new series....' (etc). Later SRa is described as a field change incorporating an improved transmitting tube - so SRa has to follow SR rather than vice versa, it being hard to modify something until it's there <g>
As this isn't particularly something I've been overly 'into' I've only skimmed the surface, radar prior to SR looks to have been SC and a series of developments of SC - SC2,3,4,5. Not much about SRa otherwise, Friedman seems reasonably consistent with himself, ie '1943' ties in with other dates, a simple typo doesn't look likely.

Dave
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rtrapasso
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RE: Some radar questions

Post by rtrapasso »

Well, then it sounds like our original reference (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_Radar_WWII.htm ) is perhaps incorrect...[8|]
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