I've studied everything that I can read about COTA, HTTR and Korsun Pocket. They're getting such great reviews, but I'm just not an advanced grognard who can get excited about reading the field manual to disassembling a rifle.
If I was going to make one serious wargame purchase, what would you recommend for realism, attention to historic detail and user friendliness for the beginner who would rather spend the first two hours playing instead of reading the manual?
Here are games that I've liked, to get a better gauge:
Birth of America, Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord and Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin, HOI 2 except for how lousy and difficult transports and supplies are to figure out, EU 2.
I'm divided on the free version of Steel Panthers WWII. Interesting, challeging, a nice balance of what to learn, but moving units and finishing out some battles are very tedious.
What I've hated: Victoria (way too much micromanagement and no fun); World at War (too dumbed down, just not fun, probably didn't give it enough of a chance); TacOps (boring, not enough of a grognard to really know how to work all the units together).
I really wished that there was a demo to HTTR, COTA or Korsun Pocket. I might like them, but I just don't like the leap into what appears to be complex and almost a religion. Just want some fun where I can learn a little history. There's no harm in saying that I might not like any of these based on what I've just listed about my interests.
Gunshy
Moderator: Arjuna
RE: Gunshy
rasnell,
Why don't you run the 5 Minute Guide from here:
http://cota.matrixgames.com/downloads/
This is a short video that shows you how easy it is to get up and running with COTA.
The Airborne Assault game engine on which HTTR and COTA are based is certainly the most powerful and realistic simulator for operational WW2 warfare on the market. However, the reason it has won all the awards, including the War-Historical's Wargame of the Year for 2006 and Cyberstratege's Lorier D'Or ( Game of the Year ) for 2006, is because it marries the most powerful AI with a truly easy to use interface. Orders can be issued with a click of a button. You don't need to micromanage every unit - most players typically issue orders to Bn HQs. You can of course micromanage if you choose to.
Many new players just dive straight in after watching the 5 Minute guide. It shows you how to issue orders and access info on your forces and objectives. So you can be up and playing straight away.
However COTA does come with two excellent tutorials. The intro tutorial is a step by step walkthrough of the basic mechanics and takes about an hour or so to run through. The advanced tutorial focuses on a more complex scenario and is like a primer for operational warfare commanders. It guides you through the various phases of oprational warfare - delay, defence, advance, attack. It takes about 3 to 4 hours to play that scenario. It's recommended that you don't undertake the advanced tutorial until you have played a number of the smaller scenarios and are familiar with the mechanics.
I would recommend you check out the 5 Minute guide. If you like what you see, buy the game and by all means jump straight in. However, do yourself a service and spend some time going through the tutorials. You will be amazed at the depth there is. Moreover, if you are used to traditional turn based wargames then the tutorials will help you make that paradigm shift in awareness required to get the most out of this new engine.
Good luck.
Why don't you run the 5 Minute Guide from here:
http://cota.matrixgames.com/downloads/
This is a short video that shows you how easy it is to get up and running with COTA.
The Airborne Assault game engine on which HTTR and COTA are based is certainly the most powerful and realistic simulator for operational WW2 warfare on the market. However, the reason it has won all the awards, including the War-Historical's Wargame of the Year for 2006 and Cyberstratege's Lorier D'Or ( Game of the Year ) for 2006, is because it marries the most powerful AI with a truly easy to use interface. Orders can be issued with a click of a button. You don't need to micromanage every unit - most players typically issue orders to Bn HQs. You can of course micromanage if you choose to.
Many new players just dive straight in after watching the 5 Minute guide. It shows you how to issue orders and access info on your forces and objectives. So you can be up and playing straight away.
However COTA does come with two excellent tutorials. The intro tutorial is a step by step walkthrough of the basic mechanics and takes about an hour or so to run through. The advanced tutorial focuses on a more complex scenario and is like a primer for operational warfare commanders. It guides you through the various phases of oprational warfare - delay, defence, advance, attack. It takes about 3 to 4 hours to play that scenario. It's recommended that you don't undertake the advanced tutorial until you have played a number of the smaller scenarios and are familiar with the mechanics.
I would recommend you check out the 5 Minute guide. If you like what you see, buy the game and by all means jump straight in. However, do yourself a service and spend some time going through the tutorials. You will be amazed at the depth there is. Moreover, if you are used to traditional turn based wargames then the tutorials will help you make that paradigm shift in awareness required to get the most out of this new engine.
Good luck.
RE: Gunshy
I had tried out the video. Frankly, it seemed intimidating to me. It's just a lot of money for new games any more, especially when no playable demo is provided. I was leaning more to Highway to the Reich because of the broader game scope and being the forerunner of COTA.
But the learning curve is what concerns me. Life is too busy to commit hours on end. It's nice to pick up a game or resume where you left off and not miss a beat.
But the learning curve is what concerns me. Life is too busy to commit hours on end. It's nice to pick up a game or resume where you left off and not miss a beat.
RE: Gunshy
rasnell,
I appreciate time these days is a premium - we all lead busy lives. However, like all things, you only get out of things what you put into them.
HTTR and COTA are easy to learn but difficult to master.
The difficulty is not in the mechanics of playing but in understanding the principles of operational warfare and the role of a real life operational commander. If you already have a good grasp of these then you will slip into it like a glove. If not, then yes you will need to spend some time on the advanced tutorial. However, the time you invest in mastering these will be rewarded with a rich, realistic and fun experience.
One thing to bear in mind is that most of the smaller and medium sized scenarios are playable in an hour or two. Because you're not micromanaging every unit, it's not hard labour. You start by issuing some simple orders to achieve your assigned objectives. Then you watch how things unfold, checking the status and progress of your units. If the unexpected happens like an enemy moving in on your flank, you will need to revise your plan and issue new orders. but you do this at the Bn HQ level and the AI manages the subordinate companies.
As I said in both HTTR and COTA there are a range of scenarios ranging from simple brigade actions through to divisional sized operations to full corps sized battles. It's recommended you start small and work your way up.
As to the price of the games, well that's a subjective judgement. If you're on a tight budget then yes $50 can be a lot. Similarly if you are dependent on game royalties to feed your family then it can be pitifully small.
BTW what specifically did you find intimidating about the video?
I appreciate time these days is a premium - we all lead busy lives. However, like all things, you only get out of things what you put into them.
HTTR and COTA are easy to learn but difficult to master.
The difficulty is not in the mechanics of playing but in understanding the principles of operational warfare and the role of a real life operational commander. If you already have a good grasp of these then you will slip into it like a glove. If not, then yes you will need to spend some time on the advanced tutorial. However, the time you invest in mastering these will be rewarded with a rich, realistic and fun experience.
One thing to bear in mind is that most of the smaller and medium sized scenarios are playable in an hour or two. Because you're not micromanaging every unit, it's not hard labour. You start by issuing some simple orders to achieve your assigned objectives. Then you watch how things unfold, checking the status and progress of your units. If the unexpected happens like an enemy moving in on your flank, you will need to revise your plan and issue new orders. but you do this at the Bn HQ level and the AI manages the subordinate companies.
As I said in both HTTR and COTA there are a range of scenarios ranging from simple brigade actions through to divisional sized operations to full corps sized battles. It's recommended you start small and work your way up.
As to the price of the games, well that's a subjective judgement. If you're on a tight budget then yes $50 can be a lot. Similarly if you are dependent on game royalties to feed your family then it can be pitifully small.
BTW what specifically did you find intimidating about the video?
RE: Gunshy
If you measured HTTR and COTA according to my likes and dislikes at the start of the post, how do you think it would fit into comparisons?
$50 is hard to justify for any purchase where you don't have a taste of what you're getting, like a demo. Testimonials for any game are always glowing. It's rare to see everyone on a forum trash a game that they've been waiting for, so you always have to take that with a grain of salt.
And it's not just $50. I've spent hundreds of dollars on games that weren't on the hard drive very long and didn't live up to the hype at all.
The only reason I'm paying so much attention to COTA and its predecessor, HTTR, is because of how well-received it is by Wargamer, Armchair General and others. But I still hesitate because they love heavy-duty, expert, grognard stuff and I'm just not that deeply into it.
The video was very, very good about showing the uniqueness of macro and micro management and how orders can be delayed and everything moving in live mode. That is very appealing.
But the scope of COTA seems very limited and the battles themselves are such an uphill climb for the Allies. Seems pretty daunting for a newbie to tackle. The sheer scope of the interface and the settings, how you use artillery support, etc., that's what seemed intimidating to me. Now I may be confusing what I saw on the video with a detailed AAR on the Web, but that's why I'm gunshy.
Lacking a COTA demo and hesitating on a $50 purchase, that's why I was looking to at least test HTTR as the predecessor because I can get it from NWS Online or Amazon very affordably. I don't know why Matrix expects the full retail box price years after release for a digital download, frankly.
I'm hoping this thread will spark other users to comment on their game experiences, perhaps with both.
Sorry to be such a skeptic. I'm a cautious consumer, but I stick with the developers when I find a great product. AEGOD and Birth of America are my best examples. I was slow to buy the game, but my purchase was sealed as soon as they released a demo. I now will support anything they do because of the game quality and developer support. Out of the Park Baseball is another product that I've supported since the first year and now I'm a beta tester for them.
I would love to feel the same loyalty for HTTR, COTA, with a little more info. I love that Matrix offers so many possibilities. Some games have been wonderful; others just outright duds.
$50 is hard to justify for any purchase where you don't have a taste of what you're getting, like a demo. Testimonials for any game are always glowing. It's rare to see everyone on a forum trash a game that they've been waiting for, so you always have to take that with a grain of salt.
And it's not just $50. I've spent hundreds of dollars on games that weren't on the hard drive very long and didn't live up to the hype at all.
The only reason I'm paying so much attention to COTA and its predecessor, HTTR, is because of how well-received it is by Wargamer, Armchair General and others. But I still hesitate because they love heavy-duty, expert, grognard stuff and I'm just not that deeply into it.
The video was very, very good about showing the uniqueness of macro and micro management and how orders can be delayed and everything moving in live mode. That is very appealing.
But the scope of COTA seems very limited and the battles themselves are such an uphill climb for the Allies. Seems pretty daunting for a newbie to tackle. The sheer scope of the interface and the settings, how you use artillery support, etc., that's what seemed intimidating to me. Now I may be confusing what I saw on the video with a detailed AAR on the Web, but that's why I'm gunshy.
Lacking a COTA demo and hesitating on a $50 purchase, that's why I was looking to at least test HTTR as the predecessor because I can get it from NWS Online or Amazon very affordably. I don't know why Matrix expects the full retail box price years after release for a digital download, frankly.
I'm hoping this thread will spark other users to comment on their game experiences, perhaps with both.
Sorry to be such a skeptic. I'm a cautious consumer, but I stick with the developers when I find a great product. AEGOD and Birth of America are my best examples. I was slow to buy the game, but my purchase was sealed as soon as they released a demo. I now will support anything they do because of the game quality and developer support. Out of the Park Baseball is another product that I've supported since the first year and now I'm a beta tester for them.
I would love to feel the same loyalty for HTTR, COTA, with a little more info. I love that Matrix offers so many possibilities. Some games have been wonderful; others just outright duds.
RE: Gunshy
The PG games have you face off against a very capable AI opponent. The same cannot be said of any of the games from Paradox - that is not to say that you won't find fun or challenge ... simply it is not going to be clever and appropriate moves by the AI that make game play enjoyable.
The PG games bring unique features to game play that no one else has provided:
* Hiearchical command (like the real world); command at any level; and delegate orders to multiple-levels of AI subordinates which are very capable. Some of this was seen in the CWBR/TC2M games, but not nearly to the same degree.
* Order delays; nothing is instantaneous and commanding requires a real sense of time management and predictive planning. Like real life things don't happen immediately because someone commands it.
The reality is that the series has three games: RDOA/HTTR/COTA. There is still a demo of Red Devils Over Arnhem floating around on the Net. COTA has advanced way beyond RDOA, but the demo does give a sense of what the series is about if you invest the time to fully examine it.
Of course the series is 2D as is BOA ... no little sprites of polygons shooting at each other. There is a rich set of orders that the player can command and a very comprehensive set of detailed and overview data that can be displayed about the battle.
You will find tutorial/AARs (see sticky Mini-Guides) written by me that provide everything anyone wants to know about what it is like to play the game.
At some point (even when demos are available), you simply have to make a choice. Even the most highly honored games may not be suitable for you and at the same time some rotten tomatoes do have a dedicated core of fans. No one can really tell you whether something is right for you; you'll have to figure that out yourself.
Feel free to ask if you if you have specific questions. Take care.
The PG games bring unique features to game play that no one else has provided:
* Hiearchical command (like the real world); command at any level; and delegate orders to multiple-levels of AI subordinates which are very capable. Some of this was seen in the CWBR/TC2M games, but not nearly to the same degree.
* Order delays; nothing is instantaneous and commanding requires a real sense of time management and predictive planning. Like real life things don't happen immediately because someone commands it.
The reality is that the series has three games: RDOA/HTTR/COTA. There is still a demo of Red Devils Over Arnhem floating around on the Net. COTA has advanced way beyond RDOA, but the demo does give a sense of what the series is about if you invest the time to fully examine it.
Of course the series is 2D as is BOA ... no little sprites of polygons shooting at each other. There is a rich set of orders that the player can command and a very comprehensive set of detailed and overview data that can be displayed about the battle.
You will find tutorial/AARs (see sticky Mini-Guides) written by me that provide everything anyone wants to know about what it is like to play the game.
At some point (even when demos are available), you simply have to make a choice. Even the most highly honored games may not be suitable for you and at the same time some rotten tomatoes do have a dedicated core of fans. No one can really tell you whether something is right for you; you'll have to figure that out yourself.
Feel free to ask if you if you have specific questions. Take care.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
RE: Gunshy
One other thing ... it did take me a while, as I was an flight sim only player from 1992-2001, however I really got into the series. So, you don't need to be grognard to enjoy it. However, the less experience you have with ground combat concepts the larger the learning curve will be.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
RE: Gunshy
Hi rasnell,
I perfectly understand you when you say that you're a little afraid the game would be too complex and too much for grognards.
I had the same feeling when I discovered the first game in the series : Airborne Assault : Red Devils Over Arnhem. Fortunately for me, that one was published by BF.C and there was a demo. Otherwise, I would certainly have never bought it. It took me a while though to realise what this game was all about. And it was a revelation.
First of all, I'm not a grognard. I'm a casual gamer and don't know everything about WWII ground warfare. I'm interrested in good strategy games and the WWII period appeals to me for the tactics employed and the technology deployed.
I found the game easy to play. The interface is clean and efficient.
Then, it offered a nice challenge. At first, I thought it was too complex. But as soon as you understand the game mechanics, you only have to concentrate on your strategies. No rocket science, no reading of Guderian required.
There is a bit of a learning curve of course, but if you managed games like CM and BoA, I see no problem. HTTR/COTA are not much more complex.
You already know what a Pzkw III is and what it can do to a Sherman tank.
I also like CM. I find a bit tedious to micromanage all units (the traffic jam issues are frustrating). And BoA is on my list, if I have time.... I liked the demo.
HTTR/COTA are not into micro-managing all of your units. To the contrary, you happen to take command of a portion of your force. The other units are controlled by the AI, on your behalf. The whole learning curve is to learn how your units behave in such and such situation when you give them such and such orders. There is nothing different from learning how to position your Pzkw III in a hull down position using the appropriate order in CM. And coordinating your troop advance with your arty barrage.
No 'lousy supplied' to take care of : the supply system in COTA is complete and accurate, but fully automated. No need to take care of the gory details, you only have to take care that your troops are in position to receive supply and your bases ae safe. HTTR is even simpler in that regard (though too simple as it is not realistic).
Puzzled about the arty rules ? Don't take control of any arty unit at first. And don't take the advice of MarkShot in that regard : the guy likes to micro-manage his arty. The TacAI can keep them attached to their organic force and take care of them. Maybe not in the exact way you want, but good enough. And you can learn later how to handle these. Same things for supply bases.
I usually take command of not more than 40 units. Usually these are at Bn level. Most arty units stay on call (i.e. with a defend task), with the occasional barrage. Nothing to be overwhelmed, enough to be in control.
I don't know if it is enough for you to take a decision. Take into account that I'm an early fan. Look at my sig for more info.
I'd say HTTR is simpler than COTA and contains some pretty nice small scenarios. COTA on the other hand is more elaborated and realistic.
I hope this helps,
JeF.
I perfectly understand you when you say that you're a little afraid the game would be too complex and too much for grognards.
I had the same feeling when I discovered the first game in the series : Airborne Assault : Red Devils Over Arnhem. Fortunately for me, that one was published by BF.C and there was a demo. Otherwise, I would certainly have never bought it. It took me a while though to realise what this game was all about. And it was a revelation.
First of all, I'm not a grognard. I'm a casual gamer and don't know everything about WWII ground warfare. I'm interrested in good strategy games and the WWII period appeals to me for the tactics employed and the technology deployed.
I found the game easy to play. The interface is clean and efficient.
Then, it offered a nice challenge. At first, I thought it was too complex. But as soon as you understand the game mechanics, you only have to concentrate on your strategies. No rocket science, no reading of Guderian required.
There is a bit of a learning curve of course, but if you managed games like CM and BoA, I see no problem. HTTR/COTA are not much more complex.
You already know what a Pzkw III is and what it can do to a Sherman tank.
ORIGINAL: rasnell
Here are games that I've liked, to get a better gauge:
Birth of America, Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord and Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin, HOI 2 except for how lousy and difficult transports and supplies are to figure out, EU 2.
I'm divided on the free version of Steel Panthers WWII. Interesting, challeging, a nice balance of what to learn, but moving units and finishing out some battles are very tedious.
I also like CM. I find a bit tedious to micromanage all units (the traffic jam issues are frustrating). And BoA is on my list, if I have time.... I liked the demo.
HTTR/COTA are not into micro-managing all of your units. To the contrary, you happen to take command of a portion of your force. The other units are controlled by the AI, on your behalf. The whole learning curve is to learn how your units behave in such and such situation when you give them such and such orders. There is nothing different from learning how to position your Pzkw III in a hull down position using the appropriate order in CM. And coordinating your troop advance with your arty barrage.
No 'lousy supplied' to take care of : the supply system in COTA is complete and accurate, but fully automated. No need to take care of the gory details, you only have to take care that your troops are in position to receive supply and your bases ae safe. HTTR is even simpler in that regard (though too simple as it is not realistic).
Puzzled about the arty rules ? Don't take control of any arty unit at first. And don't take the advice of MarkShot in that regard : the guy likes to micro-manage his arty. The TacAI can keep them attached to their organic force and take care of them. Maybe not in the exact way you want, but good enough. And you can learn later how to handle these. Same things for supply bases.
I usually take command of not more than 40 units. Usually these are at Bn level. Most arty units stay on call (i.e. with a defend task), with the occasional barrage. Nothing to be overwhelmed, enough to be in control.
I don't know if it is enough for you to take a decision. Take into account that I'm an early fan. Look at my sig for more info.
I'd say HTTR is simpler than COTA and contains some pretty nice small scenarios. COTA on the other hand is more elaborated and realistic.
I hope this helps,
JeF.
Rendez-vous at Loenen before 18:00.
Don't loose your wallet !
Conquest Of The Aegean Web Development Team
The Drop Zone
Don't loose your wallet !
Conquest Of The Aegean Web Development Team
The Drop Zone
RE: Gunshy
ORIGINAL: rasnell
But the scope of COTA seems very limited and the battles themselves are such an uphill climb for the Allies. Seems pretty daunting for a newbie to tackle. The sheer scope of the interface and the settings, how you use artillery support, etc., that's what seemed intimidating to me. Now I may be confusing what I saw on the video with a detailed AAR on the Web, but that's why I'm gunshy.
What makes you say COTA seems limited ? Number of scenarios ? Theatre scope ?
Not an easy task for the Allies most of the time, that's right. And for a good portion the frustrating delay mission. This is why I nearly always play as the Axis in COTA.
I'd say HTTR offers much more balance in that regard. But you got to have more maps and different situations in COTA.
About the interface scope, you can notice that if the interface offers a lot of possibilites, there is _always_ a default value. Maybe not the most efficient at the time but a good enough one. Look at screen shots, you have "unspecified" route or formations. An attack has aggro set to high by default. And so on... So you don't have to take all these into account and read the full reference manual to play.
Cheers,
JeF.
Rendez-vous at Loenen before 18:00.
Don't loose your wallet !
Conquest Of The Aegean Web Development Team
The Drop Zone
Don't loose your wallet !
Conquest Of The Aegean Web Development Team
The Drop Zone
RE: Gunshy
rasnell,
I've played most of the games you mention in your initial post. To be honest it's still difficult to tell you if you will like COTA/HTTR because they are so different. Some people don't like the real time aspect for some odd reason, but as you enjoy HOI 2 I wouldn't think you are in that category.
I would say that COTA/HTTR are only as complicated as you want them to be. What I mean by that is a game like War in the Pacific - or to use a game from your examples, possibly HOI 2 is complicated and if you don't understand the 'rules' you won't enjoy the game. You won't be able to do things and you won't understand why.
COTA/HTTR do undeniably become more fun if you put more effort into knowing the battlefield, your units and how they all interact.. That's part of being a better General.. but it's also perfectly good fun if you haven't yet learned all that stuff.. or simply aren't in the mood to bend your brain around all these intricacies.
It's one of those games that handles it all for you. If your troops are in woods or a village.. they get better defence.. if they're surrounded they won't be getting supplied (edit - COTA feature!), if they're in rough terrain they will move slower, etc etc. It takes care of the complicated stuff under the hood leaving you feeling like it's all making sense in a real world way. As a commander on the battlefield you wouldn't have to deal with stuff like your tanks can't attack this turn because they rolled less than a 6 on a dice because such and such rule comes into place as they were attacked last turn blah blah blah. You give the orders and let your officers worry about the details. As others have said, it's easy to play, but hard to master, and beginning to master it will make you feel like you're becoming a better commander, rather than simply you are starting to understand the rules.
You will, generally, give orders to HQ's and they will issue the appropriate orders to their subordinates so you won't be worrying about having to look after hundreds of units. (You can of course issue orders to individual units if you see fit) I've played games where I've just issued orders to the top HQ and then just watched the game unfold. Often I can't resist issuing separate orders to some subordinate HQ's.. and before long it's pulled me in and I'm knee deep in strategy
It really is as complicated or simple as you want it to be.
Anyway, good luck whatever you decide. I found out about HTTR after typing 'best wargame AI' into Google and getting hit after hit about it. Since then it's become my favourite wargame (with COTA) and my other favourites never seemed quite the same.
I've played most of the games you mention in your initial post. To be honest it's still difficult to tell you if you will like COTA/HTTR because they are so different. Some people don't like the real time aspect for some odd reason, but as you enjoy HOI 2 I wouldn't think you are in that category.
I would say that COTA/HTTR are only as complicated as you want them to be. What I mean by that is a game like War in the Pacific - or to use a game from your examples, possibly HOI 2 is complicated and if you don't understand the 'rules' you won't enjoy the game. You won't be able to do things and you won't understand why.
COTA/HTTR do undeniably become more fun if you put more effort into knowing the battlefield, your units and how they all interact.. That's part of being a better General.. but it's also perfectly good fun if you haven't yet learned all that stuff.. or simply aren't in the mood to bend your brain around all these intricacies.
It's one of those games that handles it all for you. If your troops are in woods or a village.. they get better defence.. if they're surrounded they won't be getting supplied (edit - COTA feature!), if they're in rough terrain they will move slower, etc etc. It takes care of the complicated stuff under the hood leaving you feeling like it's all making sense in a real world way. As a commander on the battlefield you wouldn't have to deal with stuff like your tanks can't attack this turn because they rolled less than a 6 on a dice because such and such rule comes into place as they were attacked last turn blah blah blah. You give the orders and let your officers worry about the details. As others have said, it's easy to play, but hard to master, and beginning to master it will make you feel like you're becoming a better commander, rather than simply you are starting to understand the rules.
You will, generally, give orders to HQ's and they will issue the appropriate orders to their subordinates so you won't be worrying about having to look after hundreds of units. (You can of course issue orders to individual units if you see fit) I've played games where I've just issued orders to the top HQ and then just watched the game unfold. Often I can't resist issuing separate orders to some subordinate HQ's.. and before long it's pulled me in and I'm knee deep in strategy
It really is as complicated or simple as you want it to be.Anyway, good luck whatever you decide. I found out about HTTR after typing 'best wargame AI' into Google and getting hit after hit about it. Since then it's become my favourite wargame (with COTA) and my other favourites never seemed quite the same.
RE: Gunshy
All of these responses were exactly what I was hoping for. I think I'll search for the Arnheim demo, knowing that it will be a very early and limited comparison. However, it sounds like it has the same live orders and movement delays that make this game engine so unique.
I think I'm going to split the difference and go with the more affordable HTTR for starters. It just seems like there are broader options regarding the theater and scenario. Maybe I'm mistaking COTA, but it just seems very narrow in theater scope and like everything would be uphill for the Allies. Correct me if I'm wrong and there are many scenarios and different maps that provide a balanced possibility, especially for someone new to COTA.
The answers comparing what I've thought of the good and bad games were especially helpful. I did not mind the learning curve of HOI 2 or the real-time global strategy. Just annoyed by how supply and transports were handled.
Based on all your helpful posts, I think I'm going to plunge into the shallow end of the pool first, try the Arnheim demo, buy HTTR and see if I graduate to COTA.
Keep posting more about how you found the game, first impressions, overcoming the learning curve. I'll keep checking the forum for info. Many thanks.
I think I'm going to split the difference and go with the more affordable HTTR for starters. It just seems like there are broader options regarding the theater and scenario. Maybe I'm mistaking COTA, but it just seems very narrow in theater scope and like everything would be uphill for the Allies. Correct me if I'm wrong and there are many scenarios and different maps that provide a balanced possibility, especially for someone new to COTA.
The answers comparing what I've thought of the good and bad games were especially helpful. I did not mind the learning curve of HOI 2 or the real-time global strategy. Just annoyed by how supply and transports were handled.
Based on all your helpful posts, I think I'm going to plunge into the shallow end of the pool first, try the Arnheim demo, buy HTTR and see if I graduate to COTA.
Keep posting more about how you found the game, first impressions, overcoming the learning curve. I'll keep checking the forum for info. Many thanks.
RE: Gunshy
ORIGINAL: MarkShot
The PG games have you face off against a very capable AI opponent. The same cannot be said of any of the games from Paradox - that is not to say that you won't find fun or challenge ... simply it is not going to be clever and appropriate moves by the AI that make game play enjoyable.
The PG games bring unique features to game play that no one else has provided:
* Hiearchical command (like the real world); command at any level; and delegate orders to multiple-levels of AI subordinates which are very capable. Some of this was seen in the CWBR/TC2M games, but not nearly to the same degree.
* Order delays; nothing is instantaneous and commanding requires a real sense of time management and predictive planning. Like real life things don't happen immediately because someone commands it.
The reality is that the series has three games: RDOA/HTTR/COTA. There is still a demo of Red Devils Over Arnhem floating around on the Net. COTA has advanced way beyond RDOA, but the demo does give a sense of what the series is about if you invest the time to fully examine it.
Of course the series is 2D as is BOA ... no little sprites of polygons shooting at each other. There is a rich set of orders that the player can command and a very comprehensive set of detailed and overview data that can be displayed about the battle.
You will find tutorial/AARs (see sticky Mini-Guides) written by me that provide everything anyone wants to know about what it is like to play the game.
At some point (even when demos are available), you simply have to make a choice. Even the most highly honored games may not be suitable for you and at the same time some rotten tomatoes do have a dedicated core of fans. No one can really tell you whether something is right for you; you'll have to figure that out yourself.
Feel free to ask if you if you have specific questions. Take care.
I loved your AARs -- in fact, spent the most of all my research time reading them. They are outstanding -- but very intimidating. Your love of the detail comes across to a newbie as scary micromanagement. Now I understand that you can balance your own plan to fit your style and the AI appears to do a good job even if you stay at HQ level.
Thanks again for your help.
RE: Gunshy
ORIGINAL: rasnell
I loved your AARs -- in fact, spent the most of all my research time reading them. They are outstanding -- but very intimidating. Your love of the detail comes across to a newbie as scary micromanagement. Now I understand that you can balance your own plan to fit your style and the AI appears to do a good job even if you stay at HQ level.
Frankly, Markshot's AAR's scare the hell out of me as well - I'm nowhere near that level of competence in operational level combat and just tend to wing it. I just use some basic military smarts like not sending your panzers through woods and keeping your arty in range but out of harms way and making sure you don't get cut off and making sure I hit the deciding point with everything I've got (schwerpunkt principle) but that's about it.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
RE: Gunshy
Rasnell,
Despite all the detail in the AARs an important to take away from them is this.
Like many wargames RDOA/HTTR/COTA call themselves strategy games. The fundamental difference about this series is this:
(1) Note prior to the two AARs I do draw up a high-level plan for the battle. This is the "strategy" that all these war games talk about.
(2) Note that despite my verbosity covering the game interface prior to starting the game session, ultimately, I have arrived at, through the interface, a set of orders that very much mirrors my high level strategy.
In other words, high-level strategy which was conceptual was able to be realized directly via the game's command interface, AI chain of command, and automatic pathing. So, you the player are actually playing at the strategic level and not at some much lower micro level trying to follow some strategy you drew up. In the series, conceptual strategy and actual game play are pretty much the same thing. This is why this series is so unique and such a gem.
When you marry the above with order delays, you end up with a game about the challenges of command that comes closer than any other product in realistically portraying it. Don't take my word for it ... as I would not even know how to take a rifle off of safety. We have quite a few members of the team with real military training (besides the developer) and that is the opinion which they hold.
Despite all the detail in the AARs an important to take away from them is this.
Like many wargames RDOA/HTTR/COTA call themselves strategy games. The fundamental difference about this series is this:
(1) Note prior to the two AARs I do draw up a high-level plan for the battle. This is the "strategy" that all these war games talk about.
(2) Note that despite my verbosity covering the game interface prior to starting the game session, ultimately, I have arrived at, through the interface, a set of orders that very much mirrors my high level strategy.
In other words, high-level strategy which was conceptual was able to be realized directly via the game's command interface, AI chain of command, and automatic pathing. So, you the player are actually playing at the strategic level and not at some much lower micro level trying to follow some strategy you drew up. In the series, conceptual strategy and actual game play are pretty much the same thing. This is why this series is so unique and such a gem.
When you marry the above with order delays, you end up with a game about the challenges of command that comes closer than any other product in realistically portraying it. Don't take my word for it ... as I would not even know how to take a rifle off of safety. We have quite a few members of the team with real military training (besides the developer) and that is the opinion which they hold.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
RE: Gunshy
I was just rereading this thread. Somehow, I am getting cast in the role of a grognard. I think I better go look at myself in a mirror ... perhaps those aches I get when it's a full moon are not simply arthritis.
Of course, if you ask what's best to do when there is a full moon, I would say a perfect set up for submerged attacks on a convoy (normally too difficult in low light situations) ... so, maybe I am actually becomming a salty dog. Oh, well ...
Of course, if you ask what's best to do when there is a full moon, I would say a perfect set up for submerged attacks on a convoy (normally too difficult in low light situations) ... so, maybe I am actually becomming a salty dog. Oh, well ...
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
RE: Gunshy
Markshot, aka 'wolfpack' - as drawn by a fellow crew member of his type IX sub, working on his latest masterpiece 'Markshot's top howlers in COTA'! 
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RE: Gunshy
Cute! This graphic was done as a criticism of my EAW Air Combat Guide (for head to head), "Shoot to Kill", being too hard for new players to follow. Pretty amusing.
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2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
RE: Gunshy
Great stuff! [:D]
EAW, man that was a brilliant sim. I still have the box, wonder if it would run? That, Falcon 4, Aces of the Pacific and Rowans Battle of Britain are the classic combat flight sims of all time!
Edit - oh, and Eurofighter - and DI's Tornado.. I think that about wraps it up!
EAW, man that was a brilliant sim. I still have the box, wonder if it would run? That, Falcon 4, Aces of the Pacific and Rowans Battle of Britain are the classic combat flight sims of all time!
Edit - oh, and Eurofighter - and DI's Tornado.. I think that about wraps it up!
RE: Gunshy
ORIGINAL: rasnell
Keep posting more about how you found the game, first impressions, overcoming the learning curve.
As being dutch, the main reason for me to buy HttR was the theatre. I am not a Grognard myself. I found the engine very easy to master. And the smaller battles like "Raid on Renkum" and "Joe's bridge" were not difficult to start with. The larger scenarios were intimidating at first, but later on you learn that you only have to command the higher HQ's and things become clearer. You can let the AI work for you.
Now I would say the AI is the main reason to appreciate the game. It works for you by detailing the orders for lower units. And it gives a good opponent.
If you like the theatre of HttR more than COTA, I would say go for HttR, it laks a few interface goodies (like LOS area tool), but even with COTA experience it is still fun to play. And changes are that after HttR you want COTA too.
One remark about RDOA, if I am well informed (I never played it), it laks 'orders delay' and that is a major issue, because it makes it necessary to plan ahead, and that makes the game so interesting.
Good luck.
RE: Gunshy
Order delays was added to RDOA in the first patch (1.1.45).
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...