Too much armor...

[Comrade_Blabsky]

BULLETIN!

I have been advised NOT to suggest using Q-Clone for modding.

I do assume, however, that simple modding tools will soon be available as the details get worked out. So we'll have a lot of questions here in the next few weeks.

[Uncle_Joe]

Using the procedure outlined by Beeblebrox, I can quite easily edit scenarios for the campaign and make massed armor unlikely via reducing the points. No tools required. The question is still whether this actually prevents the problem or if some hardcoded 'handicaps' kick in and allow the points for the AI to spam armor despite attempts to prevent it.

[Knu]

Hello

Beeblebrox: Thanks for instructions how to raise the AI rank. I'll try that.

Comrade_Blabsky: I was thinking perhaps of raising the cost for infantry units say with 5 to 15 points each, or alternatively lowering the requisition points by editing the operations. I currently left the rarity numbers as they were, but was also thinking of lowering them a bit perhaps for mortars, machine guns and infantry guns. I didn't left any halftracks either to the game, it is just an infantry battle now and I'm enjoying the game at last!

I still own the "original" CCIII and actually played it again during the last autumn. Now that I have no vehicles in the game, I witnessed probably for the first time the AI using snipers. Was really surprised about that! Or perhaps there has been snipers before, but they have gotten killed really quickly...

Uncle_Joe: Like I mentioned about the Suomi-mod (Winter War & Continuation War), the Russian AI still buys every vehicle it just can, no matter how useless they are. A four T-20's is a rather funny force to attack You can kill them with a rifle...

That's why I removed every vehicle. I was expecting the AI to spend then all points to infantry guns but no, I only found (and got killed) one infantry gun, while trying to run to a cover in a house, from where the gun opened fire.

I just wish I would have tried to mod the game a bit before. I probably would not own any other games than all of the Close Combats, if I would have done this earlier. I have always hated the armor heavy AI, even with CCII, there was too much armor for my liking.

Kimmo

[Andrew Williams]

I like heavy metal

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: schrecken

I like heavy metal

Playing MMCC3, the Reds get TOO many KV1, three, four, five a scenario.

The Nazee OB affords them no such luxury.

This makes it really, really hard to attack when that armour camps out on the objectives.

The affect is so pronounced as to sort of spoil the game.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[KWP]

You need to be bloodthirsty when you knock out an enemy tank. Go for a kill on the crew after it bails. This makes it cost more to replace plus helps to diminish the units availability in the requisition pool.

[Uncle_Joe]

You need to be bloodthirsty when you knock out an enemy tank. Go for a kill on the crew after it bails. This makes it cost more to replace plus helps to diminish the units availability in the requisition pool.

 
And thats my question from above. Is killing those crews etc really helping anything? If the AI is getting free 'crutch points' then its not helping (and might be hurting). I've looked through the Campaign Ops and I dont see any way that the AIs should have enough normal points to buy the ridiculous amounts of armor that it does (especially given its loss rates).

So it seems almost like a 'cheat' to give the AI points. And that kills the game for me because I dont feel like killing the enemy's stuff has any long-term effect whatsoever. It will always have plenty of points to spam the map with tons of heavy armor.
 
If I could ask for ONE patch request, it would be the option to remove this 'feature'. If I want more of a challenge, I can always move the difficulty slider or adjust the points down for the side I am playing. But the 'crutch points' really ruin the game IMO.

[Cathartes]

Uncle Joe,
Is the screenshot you posted from COI?  Could you resolve the quality/or post new one with same tanks if it is.  Or could someone post screenshot of Shermans? They look a little familiar, but I could be mistaken.

[KWP]

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

You need to be bloodthirsty when you knock out an enemy tank. Go for a kill on the crew after it bails. This makes it cost more to replace plus helps to diminish the units availability in the requisition pool.

And thats my question from above. Is killing those crews etc really helping anything? If the AI is getting free 'crutch points' then its not helping (and might be hurting). I've looked through the Campaign Ops and I dont see any way that the AIs should have enough normal points to buy the ridiculous amounts of armor that it does (especially given its loss rates).

So it seems almost like a 'cheat' to give the AI points. And that kills the game for me because I dont feel like killing the enemy's stuff has any long-term effect whatsoever. It will always have plenty of points to spam the map with tons of heavy armor.

If I could ask for ONE patch request, it would be the option to remove this 'feature'. If I want more of a challenge, I can always move the difficulty slider or adjust the points down for the side I am playing. But the 'crutch points' really ruin the game IMO.

Once upon a time there was an explanation on the point system that went something like this:

http://users.stargate.net/~mcconmy/Req.htm

[Uncle_Joe]

Yes, the screenshot if from CoI with the West Front mod installed.

Here is a smaller pic. Its not really too much clearer though. Unfortunately this forum doesnt allow for higher quality pics from what I can I see.

[Uncle_Joe]

Once upon a time there was an explanation on the point system that went something like this:

http://users.stargate.net/~mcconmy/Req.htm

 
Wow, thats a lot of info! Thanks for the link. I'm not overly clear on exactly what it is telling me though. [;)]
 
From what I gather, it does indeed 'handicap' based on force strength. What I dont fully understand is the 1/7 modifier. Does selecting a difficulty for Even/Even help eliminate this handicap?
 
I understand the need for some handicapping to keep the game interesting...wiping out the enemy force and then seeing only a command squad and an MG for the next 3 scenarios isnt going to be very challenging. But from what I've seen in game, the handicaps appear to be HUGE. I might have 1-2 tanks, but the AI is consistantly coming out with 5-6. And if mine are killed (so my 'force strength' is down), that doesnt seem to impact the AI and keep it from still buying those 5-6 tanks.
 
Finally, the bottom of that article appears somewhat skeptical that the formulae presented are actually working the way the designers apparently intended. Has this formula been double-checked and tested for CoI or could it still have the potential 'bugs' that that article might be implying?
 
Thanks again for the info. I'm going to fire up a new campaign using the Even/Even difficulty and see if that helps. I REALLY want to like this game again, but incessant armor spam just sucks the fun right out for me in short order. Anything that could resolve that would be a huge help IMO.
 
 

[Comrade_Blabsky]

Even-even means that the AI gets the 1/7 additional points. You won't get rid of the tanks. On the point-allocation issue, there was never any real consensus that the game was wrong, just that the explanation might be backwards, or that the reasoning behind whatever formula was working regardless.

Big rule is that the map-entry points really affect the expected force strength through operations, and that in a campaign there is some cumulative effect as well. So the bottom line is that trial and error will give you a general idea of points being allocated in scenario and campaign design, but there are way too many variables to accurately predict points given to AI.

So....

Instead of taking out all the tanks like Knu did, lets design a "light" version of WF. We can turn it into a Mod Swap plugin to be used with WF installed.

Only files to change would be GETeams and RUTeams: all of the graphics, weapons, efx etc will be the same.

Some armor is wanted. Mk IV's were prevalent, so set that to 3 or 4. Same with Shermans. Set most of the support the same; the real heavy stuff to 1 or 0. Later in rarity, allow Tigers at 2 or 3, and cut the MkIV to 2.


The difficulty setting (recruit-vet-hero) is in play here. Obviously, 0 rarity will not be seen when "Historical Rarity" is checked in the Scenario.

Recruit setting will get 1's for you. Hero setting will get 1's for the AI.

But remember: if there are 10 different armor teams that have 1 in the same rarity period, the AI could choose 10 different armor teams along with a mortar and 3 infantry teams. It's how the game works. So keep choices limited to what you want to see appear in the AI's battlegroup.

In a Scenario, there is only 1 rarity period. So if for that rarity period, all armor was 0 except for MkIV at 2 and SS StuG's at 3, you would see only a few of them for all days of the scenario.

In a campaign more than one rarity period can be used. If you change availability from period to period, the AI will choose different new teams as the campaign progresses. However (and this is cool), if some crewmembers survive they should be able to refit---even if rarity is 0.

A full mod like Zonbie's WF is chock full of wonderful units (and, WF is most assuredly an armor-lover's dream). Most mods will cram as many different teams as will fit. And this is a good thing! In the Cross of Iron, we have the great Mod Swap to use sub-mods that can be tailored to whatever forces you want to see throughout a campaign. Campaigns are fun to make. Modding is fun. These are good things too.

Now, discuss among yourselves. I'll help however I can.

[namzo6]

As much as I love armor,it'd be cool to have a submod that only allows 3or4 tanks on the board for either side.It'd be a nice changeup.I know the Real Inf mod does that to an extent,however maybe adjusting that so one could have their 3 tanks being heavier caliber.
 
 
 that's my 2 cents worth,and I'd like some change back.

[Beeblebrox]

There are mods that deal with these kinds of things [:)]

[namzo6]

Heya Beeble,are there any submods that can be installed with COI that allow for that to be used with other mods?Digging through my REALPACK folder,there are plugins,however can I use them with COI?I'd imagine I'd have to have the main mod installed,is Realred COI ready?
 
 Thanx
 

[Beeblebrox]

The only plugins tested for use with CoI are found in the Library at the link given from the Command Centre.  All old Community Mods (even for CC3) will not work until upgraded for use with CoI.
 
There are no CoI Sub-Mods (schrecken?) though I am not up with all the details.  West Front has CC3 Sub Mods for example, but I do not think there are any Sub-Mods for the CoI West Front yet, and to try and use a CC3 WF Sub Mod with a CoI WF installation is inviting disaster!
 
CoI is significantly based on RR.  There is no CoI RR Plugin as such, though some of the RR derivatives may be upgraded in due course.

[namzo6]

Thanx for the info,appreciate it

[Andrew Williams]

The only sub-mods so far are the alternate campaigns.

Any suggestions for worthy sub-mods?

[Comrade_Blabsky]

I'll do a West Front Infantry mod if Zonbie and Schrecken want. Gotta wait a few days, I'm kinda busy right now....

[Andrew Williams]

I think that would be worthy indeed.