Late War Japanese Production Complaints

[treespider]

I've read a number of complaints about late war Japanese out producing the Allies in the game...

Is this a symptom of player strategy - whereby players are adopting a strategy of trying to go straight at Japan as opposed to working into the Phillipines and isolating Japan from the SRA before moving on Japan?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: treespider

I've read a number of complaints about late war Japanese out producing the Allies in the game...

Is this a symptom of player strategy - whereby players are adopting a strategy of trying to go straight at Japan as opposed to working into the Phillipines and isolating Japan from the SRA before moving on Japan?

No, i don't think so... it is a symptom of the game mechanics which allows expansion of the Japanese factories (and consequent switchover to new models) much faster than what could occur in real life.

In reading Shattered Sword, there is some figures in there (disputed by some here on the forum) showing how bad the Japanese industries were in producing carrier aircraft. They claimed the switchover time to tool from one airplane to another was around a year in many cases.

If this was put in the game, well, it wouldn't be much of a contest. So, in order to make things more balanced (i think), historical accuracy was sacrificed to some extent.

[DuckofTindalos]

Sounds about right. If it opened an exploit, then so be it...

[Nikademus]

I attempted to limit the exploits.....but noone it seems wanted to try it so i don't know how well it worked. [:D]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I attempted to limit the exploits.....but noone it seems wanted to try it so i don't know how well it worked. [:D]

Can you explain this please, Nik?

[Nikademus]

well in the "a" version of my mod, (GC and 42a only)

R&D factories drastically reduced and small mini-factories that build the same airframe have been consolidated into singular larger factory locations. These two changes both limit player capability to expand drastically the plane types and to make airframe changes more a choice between optimizing existing production and starting new lines. A common player tactic for example is to convert some of an existing plane's production to a newer type and then make up for the change by expanding one of the lil' factories producing that same type. Now it becomes more of a choice between producing existing plane A and new up and coming plane B.

I also eliminated some of the free upgrades as well, for example, Ki43 to Ki61. You have to spend the cash to expand the Tony factories.

In the 'b' version most of the above isn't there and thats the version everyone seems to play [:D]

[Mike Solli]

Ahh, I recall hearing about that but didn't know there were 2 versions.  In our 3x3 we used the b version, didn't we?

[Nikademus]

IIRC, your 3x3 game is using CHS w/[some]Nikmod changes...so i'd say your economics model is CHS standard. I don't know what changes were done there.

[Mike Solli]

I'm doing Japanese production there and expected airframe factories to be slashed.  They were reduced but not very much.  I was kind of disappointed TBH.  I was hoping for more of a challenge. 

[Nikademus]

well try the a) version in AI play and let me know how well your able to produce those alleged "hundreds of Tonies and Tojos" etc etc. [:D]

[Andy Mac]

its hard for me to comment except by empirical evidence from my games but part of the issue is that the allies are not getting historical production of a few key types.
 
After 42 USAAF fighters are ok especially after the P40N, P47D and P38J are around production has ramped up nicely and I may be being outproduced by equivalent army types for Japan.
 
The equivalent Japanese Army fighters are what Tony, Tojo, Oscar II and Frank
 
I cannot recall off the top of my head but I think the allies gert c 120 P47D's/C's, 220 P38G/J's and 150 P40N's per month so about 490 USAAF top line fighters/fighter bombers per month
 
And they get 144 F6F, 100 F4U1D's and is it 100 F4U's so about 344 top line naval fighters per month.
 
The Japanese equivalents are what George, Jack and A6M5.
 
I ignore British Australian and Chinese types for the moment just comparing the USAAF I would guess I am being out produced in 44 in most games (never played Japan so don't know)
 
Sptfires are c 50 per month, Kittyhawk III are 50 as well Thuds are 50 as well I think so other allied types add about another 150 per month plus FAA Hellcats and Corsairs so say in total 200 - 250 other allied fighters per month.
 
In total by 44 the allies are producing 1000+ genuine front line fighters which should be enough in all but F6F production its a little fragmented between types but there are probably enough to cope for all but carrier types (I think F6F production needs to be doubled and the NF version reduced significantly
 
Andy
 

[Nikademus]

are you short of fighters in your game with PzB or was that just pilots?

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

its hard for me to comment except by empirical evidence from my games but part of the issue is that the allies are not getting historical production of a few key types.

After 42 USAAF fighters are ok especially after the P40N, P47D and P38J are around production has ramped up nicely and I may be being outproduced by equivalent army types for Japan.

The equivalent Japanese Army fighters are what Tony, Tojo, Oscar II and Frank

I cannot recall off the top of my head but I think the allies gert c 120 P47D's/C's, 220 P38G/J's and 150 P40N's per month so about 490 USAAF top line fighters/fighter bombers per month

And they get 144 F6F, 100 F4U1D's and is it 100 F4U's so about 344 top line naval fighters per month.

The Japanese equivalents are what George, Jack and A6M5.

I ignore British Australian and Chinese types for the moment just comparing the USAAF I would guess I am being out produced in 44 in most games (never played Japan so don't know)

Sptfires are c 50 per month, Kittyhawk III are 50 as well Thuds are 50 as well I think so other allied types add about another 150 per month plus FAA Hellcats and Corsairs so say in total 200 - 250 other allied fighters per month.

In total by 44 the allies are producing 1000+ genuine front line fighters which should be enough in all but F6F production its a little fragmented between types but there are probably enough to cope for all but carrier types (I think F6F production needs to be doubled and the NF version reduced significantly

Andy

My oldest PBEM is Dec 42 and my current production is the following (can't give specifics here due to possible spying eyes):

IJNAF: 287 (86 are currently off)
IJAAF: 379 (all are currently on)

That's a total of 666 (how appropriate [:D]) fighter airframes per month. I turn them off and on depending on pool levels and need. I didn't really increase any factories. I did convert a lot of factories at the beginning of the war though. When you do this, you lose about 1/3 of the output. I increased some of the factories after converting them, so I'd say the production is about the same as when it started, only different types. Now this will increase with time due to the r&d factories coming online.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

are you short of fighters in your game with PzB or was that just pilots?

iirc, Andy is short of navy pilots and navy (carrier) aircraft.

[Andy Mac]

Hellcats and F4U1D's are always short my sqns are at about 40% strength and I cannot get them higher unless I totally shut down. I calculated I am short by about 3,000 Hellcats compared to historic production.
 
The numbers I quoted above are basically a 1/44 allied position are there any Japanese PBEM's where they could add up
 
IJAAF (Oscar 2, Frank, Tony and Tojo)
and
IJNAF (A6M5, A6M FB, Jack and George)
 
Andy
 

[Nikademus]

The losses in your AAR with PzB [both sides] have been on a grand scale. Quite the fight! [X(]

[treespider]

Is Andy's game the one where India has been conquered and China is used as a free training ground for the Japanese?

I understand that Hellcat production is not as high as it should be...and that is correctable.

However my original post is not a question of whether the Japanese can or should be allowed to build 10,000 aircraft factories...those 10,000 factories would not be worth a hill of beans if they weren't receiving oil and resources.

My original post is more of a question of are player strategies impacting or more correctly not impacting industrial production.

If I understand correctly Andy is trying to fight the Japanese Air Force with the US Carrier fleet 6-8 months prior to when the US launched the great carrier sweeps historically. In addition, correct me if i am mistaken, unlike history the Japanese in Andy's game have not been subjected to a war of attrition in the South Pacific and New Guinea, where by the end of 1943 the experienced Japanese pilots had been killed off. In addition what effort has been made in Andy's game toward destroying the Japanese Merchant fleet? By August 1944 5,000,000 tons of japanese shipping have been destroyed leaving 3,325,000 which was insufficient to support the empire (Source: USSBS)

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Is Andy's game the one where India has been conquered and China is used as a free training ground for the Japanese?

yes, exactly!

[Nikademus]

My original post is more of a question of are player strategies impacting or more correctly not impacting industrial production.

Definately yes. In my case, i managed to shut down my production by relying on the auto-convoy routine to ship in resource/oil in one old PBEM game now ended. My industries all but shut down and i ran out of fighters.

PzB appears to have done a bang up job accumulating stockpiles of resources if i recall his AAR correctly.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: treespider

If I understand correctly Andy is trying to fight the Japanese Air Force with the US Carrier fleet 6-8 months prior to when the US launched the great carrier sweeps historically. In addition, correct me if i am mistaken, unlike history the Japanese in Andy's game have not been subjected to a war of attrition in the South Pacific and New Guinea, where by the end of 1943 the experienced Japanese pilots had been killed off. In addition what effort has been made in Andy's game toward destroying the Japanese Merchant fleet? By August 1944 5,000,000 tons of japanese shipping have been destroyed leaving 3,325,000 which was insufficient to support the empire (Source: USSBS)

Andy has destroyed thousands of planes, but I think he was more attrited than PzB! [8|] At least he ran out of Navy pilots and Hellcats.

He tried to use his subs against PzB merchant fleet but I think hundreds of planes have killed more subs than subs have killed merchant ships. Having 80 exp. + Helens and Sallies on ASW patrol on your shipping routes will make it impossible to achieve the results that were achieved in real life.