COTA.....wow

[cavalryman]

What a superb game COTA is. Having smuggly felt I had the Jerries where I wanted them, dash me if the bu****s didn't out flank me, cut off my supplies and damn near encircle me! Gad zooks!

[JudgeDredd]

Ahhh...welcome to the COTA world of fun!

Wego and IgoUgo wargames just won't be the same for you!

[ravinhood]

**Wego and IgoUgo wargames just won't be the same for you! **
 
Nope they sure won't, they'll actually be BETTER for you. Wego/IgoUgo best gaming system and you can play them PBEM unlike COTA or HTTR. So, you get more for your money with Wego/IgoUgo cause you have more opportunities to play other real people without having to setup time frames and being able to be somewhere at a specific time.

[Arjuna]

ravinhood,
 
It really riles you that so many others think COTA is great. Doesn't it?
 
Perhaps they're not convinced by your unsupported statements ( like "they'll actually be BETTER for you" ), expressed as though they are facts but in fact are nothing but your own subjective view.
 
Oh and BTW did you see the swag of awards COTA has picked up including the War-historical Best Wargame of the Year for 2006 ( as voted by members of the newsgroup ). And over half of all people who voted for the Best Wargame of 2006 on the Armchair General/Xtreme Gamer site voted for COTA. Not bad, hey? [:)]

[Terminus]

It's a very good game, and trolls like ravinhood can't change that...

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
Oh and BTW did you see the swag of awards COTA has picked up including the War-historical Best Wargame of the Year for 2006 ( as voted by members of the newsgroup ).

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys ... fe0cef4819

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
And over half of all people who voted for the Best Wargame of 2006 on the Armchair General/Xtreme Gamer site voted for COTA. Not bad, hey? [:)]

http://www.xtreme-gamer.com/forums/show ... hp?t=63403

That's what Joe Wargamer thinks - which in itself should be a powerfull argument to convince the few remaining doubters and other assorted heretics [;)] - but the reviewers have been just as flattering :

http://cota.matrixgames.com/news&review/

If you only feel comfortable in the fuzzy warmth of hexes and turn-based games it might not be something for you, but if you want to experience what it feels like to be a *real* WWII corps level commander instead of bean counting to get the maximum number of 3-1 odds attacks each turn there's no substitute.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Wego/IgoUgo best gaming system...

Yeah, if you're an eighty-year-old white chick.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Terminus]

Maybe that's what ravinhood is...

[James Ward]

if you want to experience what it feels like to be a *real* WWII corps level commander instead of bean counting to get the maximum number of 3-1 odds attacks each turn there's no substitute.

So the game comes with dead bodies and the smell of Napalm? [:)]

Seriously, I've never played COTA but it has gotten good reviews. I think each person has their favorite type of game system and the more types the better. I'm no fan of the traditional RTS clickfests but I did like EU and Hearts of Iron. One day I hope to try this system too and I may be suprise to like it or I may hate it but at least it's out there.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: James Ward

if you want to experience what it feels like to be a *real* WWII corps level commander instead of bean counting to get the maximum number of 3-1 odds attacks each turn there's no substitute.

So the game comes with dead bodies and the smell of Napalm? [:)]

As Napalm is a US WII invention and COTA is set before Pearl Harbour that's not in the game as it would violate the strict historical rules this game adhers to [;)]

Dead bodies however, are all over the place - usually in my own team when one of my many daft plans has been foiled once again by the AI [;)]

ORIGINAL: James Ward
I'm no fan of the traditional RTS clickfests but I did like EU and Hearts of Iron. One day I hope to try this system too and I may be suprise to like it or I may hate it but at least it's out there.

One thing you need to know : this is not a RTS clickfest wargame, that's why the developers prefer to call it a PCT (Pausable Continuous Time) game.

To see it in action, download this movie file (avi in zip):

http://cota.matrixgames.com/downloads/c ... 20v2.0.zip

Or read MarkShots excellent AAR's (pdf in zip) :

ftp://ftp.matrixgames.com/pub/conquesto ... 2-2005.zip

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[wodin]

Best game yet that recreates the battlefield above squad\platoon level.

[Kuokkanen]

COTA = Conquest of the Aegean?
I've downloaded and watched video files. So it's RTS and smallest piece of unit is company, right? And that's in Mediterra...something, right? Are there available any scenarios from other fronts with relevant unit information?

[kilowatts]

Someday all computer wargames will work this way. The hex is dead (finally), most game developers just haven't realized it yet. In the future games designed for PBEM may not be PCT (see above) and they may use fixed resolution periods (turns) instead but they won't use hexes.

Just look at WitP, here's a great game with a BEAUTIFUL map. But all that nice artwork has no effect on either movement or combat. Shame to waste all that data.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: kilowatts

Someday all computer wargames will work this way. The hex is dead (finally), most game developers just haven't realized it yet.

Why would you say that?

Personally I like turn based hex games best over all other type. That doesn't mean I don't like any other style but to say ALL wargames will work this way is a bit of a stretch don't you think?

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: James Ward

Why would you say that?

I can't answer for kilowatts but I can tell you why I'd like it if he was right.

To use WitP as an example again, the hex map has way too many anomolies that make it impossible to duplicate what was actually possible. For instance the distance from Port Moresby to several bases around it are off to the point that it puts aircraft out of range that routinely made the round trip.

With the power of modern computers we should be fighting such large scale games on a globe not a distorted flat hex map.

Turn based is still fine - although pausable accelerated real time like Harpoon Classic or the 'run 5' SSG system would be great too.

I haven't tried CotA but I own Highway to the Reich. I haven't devoted the time to learn the system because I'm not really drawn to the battles. I certainly like the concept.

[kilowatts]

Why would you say that?

Well okay, 'dead' is an overstatement. After all chess is still around - or so I hear.

Why I Hate Hexes, by Mike, aged 40 something, and a half.

Where did hexes come from? The hex is simply an artifact that was created by designers of board games so players can see and manage the location of units. Without a grid overlaid on the game map how could you tell where any unit actually was on the map? So unit movement is quantized by the grid - it can only be in one hex (usually) at any time. Hexes are used because they work better than squares at diagonal movement. But as mjk428 points out they still have problems.

• How big is a terrain feature, like a hill or a town? In hex-based games it either fills the hex or it doesn't exist (ASL had a work-around for some elements of this problem).
• Measurement between widely separated points (eg in calculating artillery or air range) is inaccurate.
• The rules for managing movement get extremely complex when different terrain types and movement classes are involved. Special rules are needed to handle the exceptions.
• Any hex based game has to place a limit on the number of hexes on the map, otherwise the map becomes unusable. The hex size is thus pretty much fixed by the map size. That automatically places a scale limit on the units involved OR peculiar results occur. For example in WitP the hex sizes are 60 miles, but the game allows a battalion to control the entire hex. To cope with this: more special rules and arbitrary limits.

That last point leads me to the thing I hate most about hex-based games...

ZOC

Not that I hate zones-of-control and only play games without them, or vice-versa. It's that the rules regarding ZOC are so arbitrary, regardless of whether a game has them or doesn't. Every game with ZOC has instances where neighbouring units should not have interacted. Every game without ZOC has instances where neighbouring units SHOULD have influenced each other but didn't.

But a computer doesn't need a grid to see where a unit is, it can know exactly where it is, down to cm if needed. A computer can know how much ground a unit covers, which way it is facing, what formation it is in. Most importantly a computer can show all that information to a player quickly and in a format which is visually easy to comprehend. Wait! the computer has only just got started. Besides this it can work the exact distance between units, even between individual weapons within units, know which way a unit can move and a computer can do away with ZOC by actually calculating the fire effects that neighboring units have on each other. That's only scratching the surface.

The arrival of wargames played on computers should have removed the need for hexes, but they're still going strong. I suspect it's because there's a lot of experience, and data, on designng hex-based games and that experience, and data, has simply shifted from paper maps to computer maps. The few non-hex based games on computer I've seen before mostly sucked. The one that didn't was Harpoon. At the time that Harpoon came out I thought it was only a question of time before the concept was applied to land combat. I was right, it just took longer than I expected. Developing wargames is hard work, I know because I've never done it. Most (all?) wargames use the existing knowledge base to make incremental steps. There's very little knowledge base for non-hex based games, but it's starting to build.

The shift away from hexes is underway. It started at the individual level - with flight simulations and first-person shooters. There are games available, or under development, which take the concept to higher levels. Take a look at the 'Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich' game forum here on Matrix. It's a evolutionary shift and the Airborne Assault series is just one step.

Thanks for listening,

Mike

Appendix A

A game can be non-hex based and still be 'turn' oriented. It could also be real-time and hex-based - but what would be the point in that? For a non-hex based game with 'turns' the process would work as follows: you would plot your actions for the next resolution period (= turn) whether it's a day or a week or a month. Your human or AI opponent does the same. When you both are ready a computer, could be yours or your opponents or a central server, resolves the plot. The resolving computer would not use the normal sequence of play we're all familiar with. Instead the computer will actually run a simulation of the units moving, firing, construction, demolition, servicing etc and record the results. Then you and your opponent receive the results and review what went on during the resolution. Based on the current information you'll make your new plot etc. The only difference between this and PCT is the P part. Pauses will be at fixed intervals, not as needed by the player.

Appendix B

The far future ... not only will future games be non-hex based and PCT they'll almost certainly be online as well. In that case you will be unable to tell whether you are playing a computer or a human. Even if you have chat turned on.

[JudgeDredd]

Not a problem for me whether a game is wego, igougo or pct (pausible continous time). The only real game type, in terms of war recreation, I have a problem with is RTS...and even then, just for excellent graphical genius and some good tactical situations, I will forgive Company of Heroes for being this type of game.

But I kind of look at Ravinhood, and, to be fair to him, anyone else that shuns a game because of it's "implimented method", as one of those people that votes Labour because "they've always been Labour" or Conservative because they've "always been Conservative" (democrat and republican to my American friends)...and I've never seen the point in this.

For example, in Government, I don't really give a rats ass what party they are from...if they are providing me with a better way of life and less tax, blah, blah, blah, then I will vote for them....the exact same goes for wargames...if it's fun, why bother what the game method is....play the damned thing.

The one problem I have with Ravinhood (and, again to be fair, anyone else who slags off a game) is slagging a game off that they do not have...they don't have a right to do it and should not. If you want to blast COTA's system, then at the very least have the courtesy to buy it, try it first hand...then if it sucks, by all means, post so...but don't slag a game off (or indeed a new method) just because it's not the normal way you play!

Peace to all.

[UndercoverNotChickenSalad]

 
I can't order the game although I was planning to play a bit this weekend.  matrixgames website won't process the order.  Some type of error [:o]  I called the girl said they'll get back to me [:D]  On Friday night I'm sure of it [:D]  Oh well, maybe monday I'll be able to get it and offer my fascinating insights.  I never tried a game like this before.

[UndercoverNotChickenSalad]

I figured out a trouble w/ the ordering to whoever it concerns:
 
 
I've moved since the last game I bought from matrixgames, but my credit card is the same.

For some reason I checked order status, and I found out that it did have record of the last thing I bought, thats when I noticed the old address. When I put in my old address it did process my new order. Obviously it checks the address w/ the credit card #. In my opinion that is a problem.  I don't know if its matrixgames or digital river who checkes this info.  But the result is that when someone moves, they'll have the same problem I just had. I have no idea how I figured out what happened, just dumb luck.

Take care

[cdbeck]

Hex based is fine, and so it RTS (I like all types of RTS, I'm no grognard). I really like the COTA system a lot, and it leads to some awesome battles. I have yet to really delve as deep as I want to with it, but I am getting there. As said before, it certainly isn't a "clickfest" and that type of play actually would ruin you with the order delays activated.

Grats on all the awards Arjuna! Although it may not be Ravinhood's cup of tea (his right to opinion), it certainly is an innovative system that has only improved from the HTTR days.

Best,
Son of Montfort