Russian Far East Forces in WitP

[Sneer]

question if subunits weren't transfered

polish 2nd army was formed in USSR but moved to syria and armed by western allies because there was lack of everything and from books of that time I know how undergunned were russian divisions in 42
otherwise - question if they left equipment in 100% in that units
probably we will not reach good enough sources but claiming that there was X guns and Y tanks because there was Z units is fundamentally wrong to me

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Sneer

yes but to extent only
division equivalent is when you count regiments and brigades into artificial divisions for counting purposes
it is not sure what was real strenght of these units

The manpower, units, and equipment were there throughout the war, albiet less well-trained as the veteran units were transferred West. The equipment upgrades were slow in coming..., but as Soviet equipment in 1941 was better than most Japanese equipment in 1945 that hardly makes a difference. The only real Japanese "gain" vs. the Soviets in 1941-44 was in the air.

(1) Only one veteran (pre-war) unit (202nd Airborne Bde) was transferred west after Dec 1941.

(2) Some (3 or 4, posting from memory) divisions that were formed in Nov and Dec 1941 were transferred west in the summer of 1942 (all went to Stalingrad). Otherwise, the FE did not provide any formations for the West Front. But lots of trained soldiers were sent west, the divisions in the FE serving as (kind of) training formations. But personnel that was sent west was always replaced by new recruits.

(3) All divisions in the FE converted to a new (smaller) TOE between January and March 1942.

(4) Tank strength remained stable between 1941 - 1945 (about 3,000 tanks and tankettes). But there were no T-34 (until late 1944 when lots of T-34/85 arrived) and KW tanks in the FE, only BT-5 and BT-7 tanks, and T-38 tankettes. Between March and July 1942 the last tank battalions that had been attached to pre-war divisions formed into (independent) tank brigades. The tank divsions under TB Front (61st and 111th) kept their strength (each 200+ tanks) until 1945 (they remained tank divisions even when all tank formations in the west were completely reorganized).

(5) Artillery strength did not change, but artillery formations converted to newer (smaller) TOE's over the time, the surplus artillery forming new artillery regiments. The FE kept a surprising strength of very heavy and super-heavy artillery pieces (122mm guns, 152mm gun-howitzers, 203mm howitzers and 305mm howitzers) and even formed some new rocket (BM-13) and mortar (120mm) formations.

(6) Air strength had reached its lowest level by Dec 1941. Afterwards there was a steady increase of air units and planes. But it seems that the FE served as a training ground, because many air units were sent west. But they were replaced by newly formed formations.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Yes, but in the period between 1 Jan 42 and 1 June 45 the Far East Forces are underrepresented.

For example in 1 July 42 Red Army is missing:

3 Rifle Divs, 10 Rifle Bdes, 1 Calvary Div

35 Artillery Regiments, 4 Mortar Bns
12 Tank Bdes, 5 Tank Bns

That`s a LOT of missing firepower. The problem is slots, I know. But using Rifle Corps instead of Rifle Divs and Tank Corps instead of Tank Bdes can solve this problem

I find this confusing. Both First Red Banner Army and Second Red Banner Army are present from the start.

As for combining divisions into corps, this may be a technical problem. First, you need to decide WHEN a unit appears - and if it must appear as a corps - it may be difficult to get it right. It cannot appear at different locations - and at different times. Do you wait until ALL of the formations appear? When they do, do you want them ALL in one location?
Because that is what is going to happen.

We already have the problem that units will vaporize when reifnorcements appear - I dream that Matrix will kill this code - but have not even asked yet. Do you want the unit to be in the same location for the whole war? Will that make sense in terms of a game campaign? Maybe - maybe not. If a player moves a unit - and remember in ALL scenarios war may be started by the Japanese at any time - so moving is something even AI may have to do. The whole idea that the unit will disappear - and reappaer as some other unit (or even the same one) in a different place may be very awkward.

This subject is mainly igored because (a) Russia is not active (or if active, not bellegerent) in most games at any time;
(b) if it does go into a real war, it happens late; (c) many real fixes require more slots and new code - neither of which is easy for Matrix or possible for the rest of us.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Yes, but in the period between 1 Jan 42 and 1 June 45 the Far East Forces are underrepresented.

For example in 1 July 42 Red Army is missing:

3 Rifle Divs, 10 Rifle Bdes, 1 Calvary Div

35 Artillery Regiments, 4 Mortar Bns
12 Tank Bdes, 5 Tank Bns

That`s a LOT of missing firepower. The problem is slots, I know. But using Rifle Corps instead of Rifle Divs and Tank Corps instead of Tank Bdes can solve this problem

Early units are most important. The only time Japan might attack is 1942. But we really have a problem with identification of units, location of units, and strength of units. Can you flesh this rough total out with details? Date of appearance, location, TO&E, etc? In particular, we need to know about the artillery units - because there are a wide variety of these - and surely we cannot allocate 35 slots to them. We need to know what they were - to what they were attached - and since artillery reorganized - we need to know what parts of these "new" units are already in the game in older ones? We don't do duplication - and we cannot remove a unit. It stays in the form it first appears as. Then we can figure out how to handle them?