Late War Japanese Production Complaints

[Nemo121]

Only a single BB was hit by an Ohka but that looks like it hit the turret - which was damaged. A turret hit isn't really going to be indicative of what damage an Ohka could do to a BB as the turret is so heavily damaged. Apart from that BB hit I've only found info of hits and near misses on DDs, DEs and transports. In every case the ship was either destroyed outright or so severely damaged as to be sent back to port for repair.
 
I think, realistically, that with CAs, BBs and CVs an Ohka hit would cause serious damage and send them back to port but wouldn't be sinking anything. With CLs and lighter warships and transports I think a single Ohka hit would reliably sink or so heavily damage as to cause the ship to be good for little more than scrap. Fortunately for American sailors since most Ohkas were launched too far from Allied TFs or went down with their motherships there is a very small body of evidence of what they could do IF they hit from which to work.

[PzB74]

Don't think that info will help Andy much Pauk! I've told him that I'm producing 600 Zekes pr month in an earlier discussion.
I am playing one game as Allies with PDU and the Allies certainly have advantages from it. Up until now I've been upgrading
mostly Boomerangs to Hurricanes [;)] The ability to swap Wildcats/Hellcats/Corsairs would be valuable too, but from my point of view this
fades somewhat if you consider that 800 Jap Oscar IIs can be upgraded to Tojos/Franks and all Jap Navy fighters can become George or Shindens.
This is what weighs most heavily in my mind when I think about PDU!!

This is something I will have figure out how to counter in my own Allied PDU game without changing most of my medium bombers into 4Es.
Much depends on what limits the Allied player has regarding this and placing Corsairs on his carriers. Without such restrictions the Allies will also reap
considerable benefits. When advantages/disadvantages of PDU have been learned properly it will be player skills that would be most indicative of what results that can be achieved, as in any good game of chess [:)] Pauk has been playing an exemplary good game against Andy, and it would be unfair to
say that this is caused by PDU!! Pauk's AAR is a must for any Jap fanboy really [8D]

Ohka's is a fascinating, although morbid, subject. It certainly attracts a lot of attention and I hope a fix can be made since it's already part of the game - and it would be nice if all parts of the game is working before Matrix stop putting out patches! [&o]

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: PzB
Pauk's AAR is a must for any Jap fanboy really [8D]

yes, and thanks to Vetamur - i have original photos from Saipan and Banzai cliff in my AAR[:D]!

(i must try everything to raise my hits average after recent SPAM attack both from Denmark and Croatia[:D])

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: castor troy
yes, correct. But IMO every "smart" Jap player has his Helens and Sallies in the SRA to cover his shipping lanes and not in Burma from early 43 on. IMO there´s not much to do in Burma or southern India for them as they would just be targets on their airfields or shot down over an Allied base. Not much to achieve there. But they ALONE can interdict an Allied sub offensive. Been there done that.

Of course he has an advantage of not having to fight in Burma.

Hi castor,

Not to blow my own trumpet but Subs can still be effective even when LBA is deployed on ASW. Faber has them deployed on ASW and i'm still sinking 20-40 ships per month with my subs for the loss of 1-4 subs a month.

The key in the early years is to get experience on your subs with attacks. Once you get Radar and the dud rate falls you can have a ball. You need to KEEP MOVING your subs. That combined with higher experience crews, radar and working torpedoes can lead to results.

It's not always a cert but you can still have success with subs.

Yes, I know you´re doing an incredible good job with your subs. [&o] Though I don´t know if Faber has really taken high efforts to counter your subs until it was too late (like it was in real life [:)]).

In every game I had going as Japanese I completely made Allied subs useless by placing 36 Helens (80 exp. +) at bases on the shipping lanes from the SRA to the Home Islands. The result is that nearly every sub (perhaps 97%??) of the subs were spotted and enough were hit. Combined with hunter killer groups that were able to reach every sub within a day it was enough to keep them all honest. A loss ratio of one sub for an escort or a merchant now and then wasn´t acceptable for any of my opponents, nor would it be for me.

My opponents moved them every day (as I do also) but the bombers did in the SRA what Allied bombers did in the Biskaya to German subs. Bombers with high exp pilots are just too good. Not that this is unrealistic but too good for the subs. Moving subs, high exp., radar or better AA - nothing helped. In all games the sub war in the SRA stopped. In one game we agreed on a house rule of putting "only" 12 bombers on sub hunting missions per base.

[pauk]

Castor, i've noticed that 80+ Sally/Helens are really too efficient... did you, perhaps noticed that there are periods in the game when they working perfectly and scoring a hit every turn and on the other hand, there is a period when the same ac cannot even spot a enemy sub?

At least this is my experience - when they are "working" they are too efficient, but there are also periods when they wouldn't spot even a modern giant tankers.....

[Ron Saueracker]

This uber ability to spot subs by air has been known since day one. Unfortunately, instead of fixing the problem by making subs more difficult to detect by air as is physically the case (due to size, submerged during day in enemy waters, radar availability etc) the only thing done was to remove multiple sub spotting from the replay, in effect sweeping the problem under the carpet rather than addressing it. Be nice if it eventually gets fixed.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

This uber ability to spot subs by air has been known since day one. Unfortunately, instead of fixing the problem by making subs more difficult to detect by air as is physically the case (due to size, submerged during day in enemy waters, radar availability etc) the only thing done was to remove multiple sub spotting from the replay, in effect sweeping the problem under the carpet rather than addressing it. Be nice if it eventually gets fixed.

I agree...I also liked Ron's thought of giving subs armour to compensate for the cushioning effect of water.
This idea was poo pooed by some as "inhistorical",especially if the sub were having combat on the surface.
Well, THAT IS ANOTHER PROBLEM-the subs should not be having combat ON THE SURFACE unless surprised, or with very inexperienced skippers.
It has been seen a more experienced/agressive skipper will have combat on the surface, ((totally contravening the design and purpose of the "Silent Service"..)
Now THAT is inhistorical......[8|]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: pauk

Castor, i've noticed that 80+ Sally/Helens are really too efficient... did you, perhaps noticed that there are periods in the game when they working perfectly and scoring a hit every turn and on the other hand, there is a period when the same ac cannot even spot a enemy sub?

At least this is my experience - when they are "working" they are too efficient, but there are also periods when they wouldn't spot even a modern giant tankers.....

hmm... I never really noticed this. "Normally" if subs are within 8 hexes of my "ASW plane bases" then they are spotted. And no sub will live longer then 7 days in such an area. Of course if there are more subs then it will take longer to completely clear the area but the subs will suffer for sure...

[racndoc]

IMHO one of the most poorly designed weapon systems of WitP is the USN submarine force. The USN submarines actually achieved in the Pacific what Germany was hoping to achieve in the Atlantic. At a cost of 49 subs the USN Silent Service sank 188 IJN warships and 1,294 merchantmen. USN subs accounted for 69% of Japanese shipping losses in 1942, 83% in 1943(when the torpedoes were finally fixed), 69% in 1944 and 23% in 1945. One of the reasons they only accounted for 23% in 1945 is that the mines they laid(along with those laid by B-29s) accounted for 28% of Japanese shipping losses.

In over 15 games of WitP Ive never damaged (let alone sink) anything bigger than a DD as the Allies. In my one completed campaign game(autovictory by 1/1/45) I lost almost 150 Allied subs and sank maybe 100 Japanese ships with them. Probably 90% of my sub losses were due to land based aircraft. As Ron has repeatedly pointed out the spotting routine for subs is ridiculous. USN subs are invaluable to me for supply transport, cadre evacuation and recon but as antiship platforms they are of little value. Unfortunately in my one completed campaign game my Japanese opponent selected auto sub ops so I couldnt stop the slaughter. We averaged 3 turns per day so I didnt have time to move every sub every turn. The best I could do when I clicked on a sub was to send it to San Diego so at least it would be out of harms way for a few months.
My opponent and I used to joke that the only thing more dangerous in WWII than being a Wirraway pilot was being a submariner.

By late 1944 when Japan is reduced to the Home Islands and Asia teaming with land based bombers you are better off with leaving the subs in port(and dont let your opponent select auto sub ops).

[racndoc]

JFBs looking for a wonder weapon to win the war should look elsewhere from the Ohkas. Although 800 Okhas were produced during the war there were only a total of 76 sorties.....all in the time frame  from March-June 1945.  In all those sorties only one Allied ship was sunk....the Mannert L. Abele. The problem was the stand off distance....due to the large warhead of the Model 11 Okha....2646 lbs and the solid fuel rocket motors the mother ships(Bettys) had to approach within 20  miles of Allied ships. The Bettys were so heavily loaded  that they were "dead meat" for any Allied CAP. Later versions of the Ohka (which were never operational) had smaller warheads and either thermojet or turbojet motors which allowed a much greater range and some velocity modulation. Indeed of the 76 Ohka sorties launched by Japan only 7 Betty mother ships returned.

In regards to BB West Virginia, her official history documents a kamikaze hit(not Ohka) on 4/1/45.....it damages the galley and the laundry area. Nevertheless BB West Virginia remained on station providing gunnery support until 4/20/45....so any damage it accumulated could not have been that catastrophic.

[pauk]

thanks for info Spruance!

I start to wonder then why Ohka was introduced in the game at all[&:]

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: pauk

thanks for info Spruance!

I start to wonder then why Ohka was introduced in the game at all[&:]

It appears to me that the Japanese player is given a few free-bees towards the end of the game to keep things spicy.

The Shinden, fx, becomes available 8/45. Historically, by this date, a single prototype existed and another was being put together. Three test flights had been undertaken for a total of 45 minutes airborne, which revealed a number of problems. Not exactly the same as being ready for mass production...

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: pauk

thanks for info Spruance!

I start to wonder then why Ohka was introduced in the game at all[&:]

It appears to me that the Japanese player is given a few free-bees towards the end of the game to keep things spicy.

The Shinden, fx, becomes available 8/45. Historically, by this date, a single prototype existed and another was being put together. Three test flights had been undertaken for a total of 45 minutes airborne, which revealed a number of problems. Not exactly the same as being ready for mass production...

While i do agree for Shinden, that can not be said for ohkas - i would gladly give a hundreds of such free-bees to Allies[:)]

[fabertong]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: castor troy
yes, correct. But IMO every "smart" Jap player has his Helens and Sallies in the SRA to cover his shipping lanes and not in Burma from early 43 on. IMO there´s not much to do in Burma or southern India for them as they would just be targets on their airfields or shot down over an Allied base. Not much to achieve there. But they ALONE can interdict an Allied sub offensive. Been there done that.

Of course he has an advantage of not having to fight in Burma.

Hi castor,

Not to blow my own trumpet but Subs can still be effective even when LBA is deployed on ASW. Faber has them deployed on ASW and i'm still sinking 20-40 ships per month with my subs for the loss of 1-4 subs a month.

The key in the early years is to get experience on your subs with attacks. Once you get Radar and the dud rate falls you can have a ball. You need to KEEP MOVING your subs. That combined with higher experience crews, radar and working torpedoes can lead to results.

It's not always a cert but you can still have success with subs.

To be fair to Speedy......I've had most....and at times all....my Sally and Helen sqdrns have, since mid-43, been flying ASW missions.......I started by flying them too high (5-6,000 feet).........but by 1944.........they have been flying at 3,000 ft........

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: fabertong

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: castor troy
yes, correct. But IMO every "smart" Jap player has his Helens and Sallies in the SRA to cover his shipping lanes and not in Burma from early 43 on. IMO there´s not much to do in Burma or southern India for them as they would just be targets on their airfields or shot down over an Allied base. Not much to achieve there. But they ALONE can interdict an Allied sub offensive. Been there done that.

Of course he has an advantage of not having to fight in Burma.

Hi castor,

Not to blow my own trumpet but Subs can still be effective even when LBA is deployed on ASW. Faber has them deployed on ASW and i'm still sinking 20-40 ships per month with my subs for the loss of 1-4 subs a month.

The key in the early years is to get experience on your subs with attacks. Once you get Radar and the dud rate falls you can have a ball. You need to KEEP MOVING your subs. That combined with higher experience crews, radar and working torpedoes can lead to results.

It's not always a cert but you can still have success with subs.

To be fair to Speedy......I've had most....and at times all....my Sally and Helen sqdrns have, since mid-43, been flying ASW missions.......I started by flying them too high (5-6,000 feet).........but by 1944.........they have been flying at 3,000 ft........

Hmmm.....perhaps a house rule that only aircraft flown by IJN pilots or assigned to a Fleet HQ be allowed to fly ASW patrols.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: fabertong

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: castor troy
yes, correct. But IMO every "smart" Jap player has his Helens and Sallies in the SRA to cover his shipping lanes and not in Burma from early 43 on. IMO there´s not much to do in Burma or southern India for them as they would just be targets on their airfields or shot down over an Allied base. Not much to achieve there. But they ALONE can interdict an Allied sub offensive. Been there done that.

Of course he has an advantage of not having to fight in Burma.

Hi castor,

Not to blow my own trumpet but Subs can still be effective even when LBA is deployed on ASW. Faber has them deployed on ASW and i'm still sinking 20-40 ships per month with my subs for the loss of 1-4 subs a month.

The key in the early years is to get experience on your subs with attacks. Once you get Radar and the dud rate falls you can have a ball. You need to KEEP MOVING your subs. That combined with higher experience crews, radar and working torpedoes can lead to results.

It's not always a cert but you can still have success with subs.

To be fair to Speedy......I've had most....and at times all....my Sally and Helen sqdrns have, since mid-43, been flying ASW missions.......I started by flying them too high (5-6,000 feet).........but by 1944.........they have been flying at 3,000 ft........

Then it´s even more impressing that Speedy was able to sink all those ships. And it´s the complete contrary of what I´ve seen in all my games (no matter what side) or in many AARs. Your game is the only one then that I know of where Helens and Sallies weren´t able to kill off all those subs...[8|] I always have them at 6000 ft 100% naval search. That´s enough for me to keep my opponents honest.

Weren´t they high experienced?

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Is Andy's game the one where India has been conquered and China is used as a free training ground for the Japanese?

I understand that Hellcat production is not as high as it should be...and that is correctable.

However my original post is not a question of whether the Japanese can or should be allowed to build 10,000 aircraft factories...those 10,000 factories would not be worth a hill of beans if they weren't receiving oil and resources.

My original post is more of a question of are player strategies impacting or more correctly not impacting industrial production.

If I understand correctly Andy is trying to fight the Japanese Air Force with the US Carrier fleet 6-8 months prior to when the US launched the great carrier sweeps historically. In addition, correct me if i am mistaken, unlike history the Japanese in Andy's game have not been subjected to a war of attrition in the South Pacific and New Guinea, where by the end of 1943 the experienced Japanese pilots had been killed off. In addition what effort has been made in Andy's game toward destroying the Japanese Merchant fleet? By August 1944 5,000,000 tons of japanese shipping have been destroyed leaving 3,325,000 which was insufficient to support the empire (Source: USSBS)

Believe allied will be short on frontline fighters even if they do fight in Burma, China and elsewhere. I have pretty much inflicted huge lossess to Japanese side in my PBEM now vs FDR. I think he has now lost about 30 000 planes already.

..and without giving too much info out I running short on several types of allied aircraft. (Allthough the situation is definately not desperate)

It is good idea to bomb Japanese resources early on where ever you can do so. (Hint for any new PBEM players) [:)]

[pauk]

shhhhhh....!