Stacking

[vahauser]

A week or two ago KG Erwin mentioned that he employs his own "house rules" regarding stacking units in a hex.

I'd never heard of anybody using "house rules" for stacking before (and I've been playing this game for many years).

Does anybody else have "house rules" for stacking?

If so, then please explain the reasoning behind such "house rules" because I'm interested in learning more about the reasoning behind stacking "house rules".

--V

[Alby]

I have never had anyone mention this as a rule before,
and have been playing PBEM and Online games going back to SP3
IMO if you stack your units, you risk losing a bunch of them at once with some well placed Arty hits or Bombs.
so go ahead and stack them....hehehehheh
[:)]

[KG Erwin]

Yeah, a self-imposed "stacking rule" is something to help in solo play. Of course, as Alby mentioned, closely-packed infantry IS a tempting target for arty/mortars.

If I want to establish a concentration for offensive purposes, I'll place units in adjacent hexes, but not more than two or three units in a single hex. This allows for Guderian's dictum of attacking with a clenched fist rather than an open palm.

Of course, dispersal is also good when operating in areas of limited visibility, to prevent enemy infiltration. However, I do try to keep units in communication range of their superior HQs.

[vahauser]

Erwin,
 
Question #1.   How do your "house stacking rules" help in solo play? 
 
Question #2.  Is there some historical justification for your "house stacking rules"?
 
Question #3.  Do you have these "house stacking rules" written down somewhere so that I can print them out?
 
--V

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Erwin,

Question #1.   How do your "house stacking rules" help in solo play? 

Question #2.  Is there some historical justification for your "house stacking rules"?

Question #3.  Do you have these "house stacking rules" written down somewhere so that I can print them out?

--V

1. This prevents solo players from taking advantage of the AI. That should be self-apparent.

2. Look at the game scale. Envision half of a football field, and cramming in half a dozen tanks and 100 soldiers. The comparison is a half-time college band occupying that space, along with floats. Would any commander in his right mind crowd that number of potential targets in that amount of space? In the 19th century, with Napoleonic blocks of infantry, maybe.

3. I don't need to write it down, Victor. Just use a little common sense. [8|]

[vahauser]

I appreciate your reply, but I was hoping you might be able to provide a persuasive case.  But from what I've read from your reply, there is no historical justification.  And evidently you just kind of "wing it" during your own games and have no written rules. 
 
Seat of the pants stacking limits (with nothing written down for consistency from game to game) and with no historical justification is not what I was hoping for.  Oh well.
 
--V
 
 

[KG Erwin]

LOL - It doesn't matter what I say, Victor. You're locked into your methods, irrespective of what ANYONE else says. Why bother to ask? Just go with it.

I don't have to give you links to combat manuals. You're perfectly capable of doing this on your own.

You don't have to try to validate yourself, man.

[vahauser]

???  I don't have any idea what you just said.

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

???  I don't have any idea what you just said.

I was as clear as the English language allows. What part did you not understand?

Was the "band analogy" lost on you? If you can't see what this looks like, and imagine tanks lined up in that space, in parade-ground formation, you'd understand how crazy that would be to do on the battlefield.

You are incapable of seeing this? If so, I'm wasting my time.

Did you ever play any board-games? They had stacking rules, even at the tactical levels. That's the basis for MY stacking rules.

[Veroporo]

A hundred men can fit a single hex.
A hundred men in a single hex is an easy target.
No sane commander will deploy his company in a single hex.
How does it follow that stacking a company in a single hex should not be done?

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Veroporo

A hundred men can fit a single hex.
A hundred men in a single hex is an easy target.
No sane commander will deploy his company in a single hex.
How does it follow that stacking a company in a single hex should not be done?

Exactly. It CAN be done, but no sane commander should ever do it. Same goes with stacking a platoon of tanks in one hex. I've seen the AI do it, even though its completely insane to do so.

[Mac67]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

I appreciate your reply, but I was hoping you might be able to provide a persuasive case.  But from what I've read from your reply, there is no historical justification.  And evidently you just kind of "wing it" during your own games and have no written rules. 

Seat of the pants stacking limits (with nothing written down for consistency from game to game) and with no historical justification is not what I was hoping for.  Oh well.

--V

I dont really understand why this is such a big deal for you. When i play, common sense dictates that i dont put too many units into one hex because a artillery or air strike is going to do a lot of damage. Im pretty sure real life WW2 commanders thought the same way. Why would KG need to write this down as a rule? Its the way he plays, end of. Reading your posts, i think you take this game way to seriously! Its just a Game! Have fun with it [;)]

[KG Erwin]

Thanks, Mac67. My thoughts , too.

[Veroporo]

Now if I got everything correctly stacking is a poor tactic in real world and in the game also and you want a house rule which basically denies using poor tactics? Why being stupid should be forbidden? Even if it should, stacking isn't an instant-win strategy so there's nothing wrong people using it.

Even if the unrealism is seen as a bad thing the phenomenon should fix itself as generally people learn from their mistakes and get rid of their worst tactics.

[KG Erwin]

No, my friend, I never suggested that anyone MUST play with stacking rules. I do this just in MY solo games. Let there be no misconceptions here. This is strictly a personal rule, OK?

[vahauser]

Mac67,
 
Okay...  Here is the issue.
 
Some people profess that they are "historical" players.  "Historical" players go to great lengths to construct "historical" cores/formations in the game.
 
So what is the point of going to such great time and effort to construct an "historical" core if that core is not going to use historical doctrines and historical tactics?
 
All I am asking is:  where is the historical data (historical tactical doctrines and tactics) that supports a stacking rule?
 
If somebody who plays with a stacking rule can show some historical data to support using such a rule, then I am interested.
 
As of today, the only person I know who uses a stacking rule is KG Erwin, so I am asking him right now.
 
But if others use stacking rules, then I want to know the historical reasoning behind it.
 
--V
 
 
 
 

[KG Erwin]

A copy of the USMC Small Wars Manual is located here: http://www.smallwars.quantico.usmc.mil/sw_manual.asp

The essential elements of US Army FM 100-5 of May 1941 are located here: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref ... index.html

[Mac67]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Mac67,

Okay...  Here is the issue.

Some people profess that they are "historical" players.  "Historical" players go to great lengths to construct "historical" cores/formations in the game.

So what is the point of going to such great time and effort to construct an "historical" core if that core is not going to use historical doctrines and historical tactics?

All I am asking is:  where is the historical data (historical tactical doctrines and tactics) that supports a stacking rule?

If somebody who plays with a stacking rule can show some historical data to support using such a rule, then I am interested.

As of today, the only person I know who uses a stacking rule is KG Erwin, so I am asking him right now.

But if others use stacking rules, then I want to know the historical reasoning behind it.

--V

Ok, where is the historical tactical and doctrines that support not having a stacking rule?? If someone wants to construct a historical core and then not play by historical tactics, so what? Its just a game! Games are something you are meant to have fun with. Like i said before, you take this way too seriously! Chill out man!

[KG Erwin]

I'm finding some humor in this, too. Historical charts for deployment of armored and infantry forces are available on the web. The dispersal of said units is also made apparent. I'm done with doing research for someone else. [8|]

[vahauser]

Mac67,
 
A typical division has about 1000-1500 SPWAW units in it (depending on the kind of division, and not counting auxiliary support units not shown in SPWAW).  A typical "average" division has around 1250 SPWAW units.
 
Here are some actual historical troop densities:
 
Peleliu, September 1944
1 USMC division + 1 US Army division + 1 Japanese division
The island of Peleliu is about the size of a standard SPWAW Medium map (60 hexes x 100 hexes)
On a map about the size of a standard SPWAW medium map, the battle of Peleliu was fought with around 2500 American SPWAW units vs. about 1250 Japanese SPWAW units.  And this doesn't count air and naval units, only ground units.
 
Iwo Jima, February 1945
3 USMC divisions (reinforced) + 1 Japanese division (reinforced)
The island of Iwo Jima is about the size of a standard SPWAW Large map (80 hexes x 100 hexes)
On a map about the size of a standard SPWAW large map, the battle of Iwo Jima was fought with around 5000 American SPWAW units vs. about 2500 Japanese SPWAW units.  [Total troop strength engaged on Iwo Jima was about double that on Peleliu for both sides.]  And this doesn't count air and naval units, only ground units.
 
In the battles for Peleliu and Iwo Jima, those islands were literally jam-packed with troops.  Historical troop densities must have exceeded 10 or more units per hex along the "front line" in many places.  American historical casualties reflect the high historical troop densities since any artillery bombardments (or machinegun fire) hitting those dense American hexes would have (and did) caused terrible damage.
 
Other historical battles reflect similar troop densities along major offensive thrusts:  Battle of the Bulge, Kursk, Vistula-Oder, etc.
 
All I am asking is for some historical evidence behind an SPWAW stacking rule.  If anybody can produce that historical evidence, then I am very interested.
 
--V