CC (not just COI) impressions

[Pford]

I plunked around with one of the CC demos (forget which iteration) a few years ago and it didn't grab me; the rigorous depiction of morale and cohesion left a tedious and frustrating after taste. Now, having invested some time in COI, I can appreciate the ground breaking brilliance of the series. Now Combat Mission seems merely derivative; many of the lauded innovative features in that sim already present in its 9yr old predecessor. Actually, it wasn't until CMBB, IMO, that the BF series arrived at the level of Close Combat in terms of strict command and control parameters. Real time is inherently more realistic than WEGO. and, unless you zoom in, the graphics are very convincing. You get used to the sprites.

But CM has, as a newer game, far better thought out features. Correct me if I'm wrong because I've only delved into COI for a couple of days. In CM for example you get; no artificial limit on the # of units, scenarios with variable turn/time limits, weather effects and time of day settings, pre-battle barrages set up by players, reinforcements, tactical air intervention, auto-generated maps, the ability to check out the enemy's dispositions at battle's end, etc, etc, etc. I'm no programmer, but most of these additions seem doable within the current engine. Except, maybe, the auto maps.

Furthermore in a game enhanced for internet play (which, so far, I've been unable to get going) there's far too much emphasis on campaigns with their career/promotion angle. Who has the time for an online campaign/operation? Even the mods I downloaded appear to offer no stand alone battles. User created scenarios were at the heart of CM.

So, I see this series as rich in potential. In fact, I prefer it to CM's 3D glitz.

[Shaun Wallace]

Hia Pford,

I won't go into the CC v CM debate, its been flogged to death already and labels strat flying

CC has a 9 year old community that has not only a plethora of mods and some 1500+ non stock maps, but a huge host of user made mods and scenarios.

Check out the forums here:
http://www.closecombat.org/forums/

Here is an example over at CSO on maps and map usage etc:
http://www.closecombat.org/CSO/index.ph ... le&sid=331

Here are some sceanrios:
http://www.closecombat.org/CSO/index.ph ... erby=dateD

Here is the main downlaod area for CC at CSO
http://www.closecombat.org/CSO/index.ph ... dsDownload

The main download area also have many many downloads for CC1/2/4 & 5, also many CC3 downlaods still need to be converted to the new CoI plugin format. However this gives you an idea of the huge community that is behind CC.

In all areas, maps, mods, sceanrios, data changes etc, CC has mods for almost every serious theatre where tactical warfare can be shown practically and also some mods simply for fun.

You can also try the Wargamer CC:COI and CC3 scenarios and ops as they have many.

Another great site is CC Series Net:
http://www.closecombatseries.net/

I am very glad that CoI has let you revisit CC and come to a very different view on the games If you need any info, just ask the community, they are more than willing to help!

Cheers

Sulla

[Prince of Eckmühl]

The thing that I love about CC is it's immediacy and capacity to generate the unexpected.

Players set in front of the display, deploy forces, their best laid plan, and hit "BEGIN."

Half and hour later, it's all over.

Your side is either victorious, wasted, or out of bodies/ammo and facing a draw.

That's realism, and no game with turns and pauses for micro-plotting moves will ever challenge it in this regard.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Pford]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

That's realism, and no game with turns and pauses for micro-plotting moves will ever challenge it in this regard.
PoE (aka ivanmoe)

I have to agree, even though Battlefront has a RT version of their engine in the works. But I think that even Boomers, like myself, could easily handle 20+ units in a melee, especially once mastering the group command. What gets me are the needless restraints in CIO; like the roster ceiling or the set map sizes. CIO is engrossing as is, but the sequel can be so much more. I just hope the developers fine tune and open up the tactical aspect. In this genre, as another poster observed, the strategy part always seems tacked on. The H*ll with it.

As far as the CM/CC flame war is concerned, I don't have a dog in that fight.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Pford

In this genre, as another poster observed, the strategy part always seems tacked on. The H*ll with it.

Did you feel that way about CC2?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Pford]

Dunno. COI is the only version of the series I've owned. It's good?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

CC2's campaign is drastically different from the linear model used in CC3. You can play the whole enchilada, alternating between the Nijmegen, Eindhoven and Arnhem sectors, or you can play one of those three individually. Even then , though, the operations aren't linear, being composed of non-consecutive battles at the various sectors within the "module," if you will. It's also worth noting that the outcomes of the individual skirmishes impact the outcome of the actual campaign or operation. Played either as a whole, or individually, they offer a magnificent depiction of the Market-Garden fighting.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Beeblebrox]

but the sequel can be so much more

Of course! [:)] but then the sequel hasn't been produced yet...

[PDiFolco]

Well, IIRC CC1 was launched in 97, and CMBO in 2000, so there's only a 3 year precedence for CC series.
Anyway /mode rant ON , I wasn't really convinced by CC1, but was a big CC2 fan. CC3 came to me as a *huge* disappointment, with his bland campaign system (compared to CC2), a quite worse AI, and the bigger maps leading to a vey small unit density just not felt right in the East...
Now I don't think I'd buy CoI for the same reasons, unless maybe the AI has really been reworked and offer at least a satisfying SP mode - I never played CC in MP, I' m a guy loving long games and PBEM, not fast skirmishes ...
/mode rant off [8|]

[namzo6]

 Hey guys,
Never played Combat Mission,I have however bought for my kids and played Blitzkreig,and other games like that.
After giving them an honest shot,I came to the realisation that they do not come close to CC.I really don't want or need 30 tanks on 1 board.It really makes the game completely unpersonal.
 

[Beeblebrox]

I' m a guy loving long games and PBEM, not fast skirmishes ...

We can buy that, and nothing wrong either! [:)]  CC to me has a very particular feel that I have not yet found in any other game, similar or otherwise (well maybe SimCity).
 
That does not make anything else bad, just different.&nbsp;&nbsp;My biggest downer was playing Sudden Strike after years of CC <shiver>, but then lots of people enjoy Sudden Strike.
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From your other comments, I would say be guarded as to how far CoI would satisfy your onw expectations.&nbsp; It is basically a re-release, but there are changes that I would argue do make it play differently to CC3.&nbsp; Whether that would be enough for you is hard to say.&nbsp; For example, it is still a Heavy Weapons Heavy game as the path of least resistance for success (and the AI will basically play that game).&nbsp; Bear in mind the wealth of Mods available which may give you enough added value to make it worthwhile?
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[Beeblebrox]

The thing that I love about CC is it's immediacy and capacity to generate the unexpected.

Players set in front of the display, deploy forces, their best laid plan, and hit "BEGIN."

That "BEGIN" Button... aaah.... and talk about the rush that can come just as you are about to press&nbsp;it&nbsp;when going Head to Head... [;)]
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Apart from the Scenario Editor (Battle Maker), where I can spend a lot of time setting up all kinds of different actions, most of the time it's all about getting into the battle.&nbsp; To me the battles drag you from one to another becasue you want to play another battle!&nbsp; How much time do we spend wandering around the UI?&nbsp; Bugger all if it's me.&nbsp; Now how do I get to that next battle?! [:D]
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Mind you, we will be producing a far more sophisticated Strategic Layer in a subsequent release.&nbsp; It is a fascinating prospect, but not without some anxieties (about getting it right).&nbsp; I mean it has to appeal to CC battler's, and they are a pretty strict lot! [;)]
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[namzo6]

Ah yes,Sudden Strike.That was another bad purchase that I passed down to my kids.650 individual soldiers on 1 board............pointless,if ya ask me.
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[Pford]

ORIGINAL: Beeblebrox

Mind you, we will be producing a far more sophisticated Strategic Layer in a subsequent release. It is a fascinating prospect, but not without some anxieties (about getting it right). I mean it has to appeal to CC battler's, and they are a pretty strict lot! [;)]

Groan, lol. Sorry to hear that, Bebblebrox. Some of us prefer a more robust, feature-laden version of the existing tactical system. Personally, I could list off the top of my head a couple of dozen feasible enhancements. It's a diversion of resources, imo. Can anyone think of a serious sim that got both elements right? Well, the Total War series, ok, but hardcore it isn't. Usually you end up with one- or two- watered down, unsatisfactory components. Maybe, if you must, a few operations, a la CM. The future, it seems to me, is head to head internet action.

OTOH, if the majority craves a strategic overlay then so be it. Vox populi. The unit experience curve and promotion thing are *sort* of interesting.

BTW, love the spell checker on this forum!

[Beeblebrox]

As I am a greedy SOB, I would actually like to have all these options, and just make the darn thing whatever anybody wants it to be!
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Wheeeeeee............THUD!&nbsp; Sorry, just me coming back to reality [8D]