An inland naval campaign????

[el cid again]

On the borders of Russia's Amur Province and Manchukuo there is a navigable river system. This runs
from the big lake in the South near Iman (and Mutankiang and Vladivostok) northeast to hex 68,30 where
(on our map projection) the river system splits:

you then can move NE to Khabarovsk and Komsomolsk

or you can move NW to yet another branching - where one river takes you to Kiamussu (Kiamuse) and the other
one farther NW

This represents the Amur River and its principle tributaries - the Usurri and the Sungari. It involves a total of 14
hexes - of which 11 are river and three are Lake Khanka - a large enough body of water to have "all sea" hex sides.

On this river system both Manchukuo and the USSR maintained small fleets of quite interesting gunboats and more mundane supply vessels. The Soviet "Amur Flotilla" is based at Khabarovsk - where a flight of spotter planes is already sited - and the Manchukuo Sungari Flotilla at Kiamuse.

IF we defined these as coastal hexes - and the adjoining hexsides as permitting land and sea movement - except for two all water hex sides in the middle of Lake Khanka (already present) - we could permit movement along routes more efficient than using the road/rail net - and which threaten both the Trans Siberian RR (for one side) and the
flanking of the Japanese strong point (the strongest point in the game probably) at Mutankiang (for the other side).
Right now supplies will not flow well between Manchukuo and Amur Province in this area - and military units invading can be cut off from supplies because there is no road/rail connection feeding them. The use of this river system was a major factor in one of the Soviet 1945 offensives - and it was a pontential factor in any other campaign in the area in any other year.

Oddly - large ships are built on the Amur - ocean traffic is not possible on this shallow river. [The Russians cleverly float incomplete hulls down it and tow them to Vladivostok for completion] We don't allow river navigation to the sea (and have a simulated river traffic line of communications) because we don't want major ships sailing upriver. So an inland river system would not be connected to the Pacific - and could not be reinforced for either side by ocean going vessels.

Conversion of this terrain to coastal - and adding naval units - adds a dimension present IRL but absent in all forms of WITP. It poses both opportunities and complications (risks) to both sides. Japan might be able to cut the Trans Siberian RR - Russia might be able to make the defenses of Eastern Manchuria untenable - depending on how the river war develops. And air power may determine which side can exploit the river system - as in other naval operations - only because the water area is so small - the impact of planes may be very great indeed.

This is a trial baloon to measure interest in the concept. This involves quite small forces - but fairly important geography - and helps simulate the real nature of the contest in this area in a sense impossible with just land and land units/communications lines.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

So i think it might be helpful:

1 RIVERRINE SHIPS BRIGADE - at Khabarovsk
- monitors: Lenin, Krasny Vostok, Sun Yat-Sen
- 1st riverrine minesweepers division: RTShch-1, RTShch-54, RTShch-55, RTShch 66
- 1st armoured craft force: BKA-11, BKA-12, BKA-14, BKA-23
- 5th armoured craft force: BKA-20, BKA-47, BKA-91, BKA-92
- 1st minesweeping craft force: KATShch-7 - KATShcz-12
- 2nd minesweeping craft force: KATShch-13 - KATShcz-18
- 1st mining craft force: MKA-41 - MKA-47
- floating batteries: PZB-1231, PZB-1234

more to follow....

[el cid again]

This system should be expanded -

Westward to Harbin - 3 more hexes west of Kiamuze

Eastward to just short of Nikolaevsk - 4 more hexes - to Smolinsk or Magu

The latter solves the "problem" of river navigation to Nikolaevsk - we can use actual river navigation to move supplies, resources and oil! No more invisible "sandwich" of road and trail hexes confusing people.

[el cid again]

We need to simplify this - so no minecraft inland -
and we use the landing craft unit idea - maybe expanding it to include divisions of gunboats too
and the number of slots becomes tolerable.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

2nd RIVERRINE SHIPS BRIGADE - at Khabarovsk
- monitors: Sverdlov, Dalnevostochny Komsomolets
- 2nd riverrine minesweepers division: RTShch-50 - RTShch-53
- 2nd armoured craft force: BKA-13, BKA-21, BKA-22, BKA-24
- 3rd armoured craft force: BKA-51 - BKA-54
- 3rd minesweeping craft force: KATShch-18 (seems listed twice), KATShch-19, KATShch-24 - KATShcz-27
- floating batteries: PZB-1230, PZB-1232

3rd RIVERRINE SHIPS BRIGADE - at Khabarovsk
- 1st gunboat division: Proletariy, Mongol
- 3rd gunboat division: No. 30, No. 31, No. 36, No.37
- 4th armoured craft force: BKA-31 - BKA-34
- 4th minesweeping craft force: KATShch-28, KATShch-30 - KATShcz-32, KATShch-42, KATShch-43
- 7th minesweeping craft force: KATShch-5, KATShch-6, KATShch-45 - KATShcz-47
- minelayer: Silny
- floating battery: PZB-1233

ZEYO-BUREYSKA RIVERRINE SHIPS BRIGADE - in Sazanka, Astranovka and Malinovka
- 2nd independent gunboat division: monitor Aktivny, gunboats Krasnaya Zvezda, No.31 - No.35
- 3rd independent riverrine minesweepers division: RTShch-56 - RTShch-59
- 1st independent armoured craft force: BKA-41 - BKA-46, BKA-55, BKA-56
- 2nd independent armoured craft force: BKA-61 - BKA-64, BKA-71, BKA-73, BKA-75
- 3rd minesweeping craft force: KATShch-20 - KATShch-23, KATShch-40, KATShcz-41
- 2nd hydroglissers force: No. 206 - No. 209

SRETENSKIY INDEPENDENT RIVERRINE SHIPS DIVISION - in Sretensk (on Shilka River) and Pad'Davan
- 1st armoured craft force: BKA-16 - BKA-19
- 2nd armoured craft force: BKA-81 - BKA-84, BKA-93, BKA-94
- hydroglissers force: No. 41, No.42

USSURISKIY INDEPENDENT ARMOURED CRAFT FORCE - in Lesozavodsk (on Chanka Lake)
- armoured crafts: BKA-26 - BKA-29

TCHANKAISKIY INDEPENDENT ARMOURED CRAFT FORCE - in Kamen and Rybolov (on Chanka Lake)
- armoured crafts: BKA-15, BKA-25, BKA-65, BKA-66

MAIN BASE PROTECTION
- guarding crafts: SKA-1 - SKA-3
- net-layer ZBS-1

and monitors: Kirov, Dzerzhinskiy and gunboats: Krasnoye Znamya, Buryat

[el cid again]

thanks

[el cid again]

I am having difficulty with armament of Soviet Amur monitors. The primary class was known as Shtorm when it was built (in WWI era). It had single six inch guns fore and aft - and twin 120mm port and starboard - plus substantial armor on the sides and the turrets. But by WWII these vessels had a checkered history. The biggest of the interventions during the Revolution was by IJA and USMC in the Soviet Far East - they made it to Lake Baikal - and a number of these vessels fell into Japanese hands - or otherwise suffered varied fates. One even was turned into a seaplane carrier (with 5 seaplanes) - to be replaced by the one Cobra found about 1928. WWII era reference materials show various and contradictory armaments - from the original to things like 8 120mm guns - in four pairs. Did the six inch turrets get replaced by twin 4.7s in some? Other sources list some with only 2 guns -
and this confusion is compounded by an apparent duplication of names of different classes - and a general change of names in this class (every ship changes names, some more than once). For openers I have defined them as built - and that is that unless we get better data.

I have added 5 of this monitor class - and 4 more traditional gunboats (with single 120mm fore and aft - but these ships are armored - unusual for RGB of the WWI era).

I am also having difficulty with the Armored River Gunboats of the WWII era - do we have data on when they were built? Cobra did some lovely art on one class - but it was a black sea only unit. Do we know which classes served on the Amur?

[Monter_Trismegistos]

http://warships.web4u.cz/lode.php?langu ... rida=Lenin

Doesn't it explain enough?

Monitors:
Dalnevostochny Komsomolets, Dzerzhinsky, Kirov, Krasny Vostok, Lenin, Sun Jat Sen, Sverdlov - 8x120 (or 4x152 4x120) 2x75mm 2x20mm 9xMG 11.5kn 965t, built 1910
Aktivny 214t (it is really a monitor? But that's how it is designated) 2x102mm ?x45mm ?xMG 9kn

[el cid again]

Thanks. Adopted in this form. But at lunch I found the records of the class - and it is rather more complex than that.
Perhaps too complex to figure out. Could a 6 inch turret be side fitted? 2 vessels were rearmed with 4 single 13 cm turrets - then those replaced with 15.2 cm - except does that mean just the fore and aft - or also the side? Others only had single 12 cm on the sides. But I have good data on some lesser craft I now will fold in.

FOLLOW UP: I have found good data at last. Seems there were six surviving members of the pre - WWI river monitor class - and by 1940 they were armed in two groups. Two vessels had substituted twin 12cm guns for the single 6 inch turrets fore and aft - although the side mounts were still twin sometimes they didn't mount both guns - and no exact data exists about which ship or when. The other four were extensively rebuilt - and had 4 turrets remounted from the original class (all these 6 inch had been dismounted from all vessels). The center deck was cleared and the mounts staggered so they could fire on either beam - almost like centerline mountings. One of these ships acted as a "fast" transport during the 1945 invasion - the slowest "fast transports" of all time? - dropping an advance recon party. So I have rated them as CL - permitting them to do gunfire support, fast transport, etc. With 4.5 inches of armor on sides and turrets - they are pretty substantially protected - even for light cruisers. Also I obtained data on the other surviving WWI era gunboats - they were pretty well rearmed with 100mm guns by 1940 - and all gunboats had 37mm and AAMG - better than is in the regular references - by the time the Pacific War begins. Most were rebuilt during the First Five Year Plan and many rebuilt again during the Third.

Long ago I defined the standard (G5) MTB - but only now are there slots for it. 24 divisions have been added - all ports have MTB defenses.