Questions on 3.2

Montenegro · Post by **Montenegro** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 10:41 pm

I have 3.1 (pure purism) and 3.2 (pro innovatoion) on my desktop now and am about to start a '41 on the update version. I am still of newbie status, so please bear with me...

OKW---Spanish Blue Div used to show up here in 3.1, and if I remember correctly, those men fought with Leeb in the North around Lenningrad. My question is: should OKH be the only source of reinforcement in the East. It's theoretically tempting to dip into OKW a little knowing how 3.2 deals with the issues of West and Med front collapse more effectively as German side.

Airfield attack---I like the fact that there is more actual destruction v. damage here in the 3.2, especially considering the overwhelming devastation the Luftwaffe had in the initial phase of the campaign. My question: are less bombers/groups needed to acheive destruction of Soviet airplanes on par or greater with 3.1? I used to throw everything and the kitchen sink at him in the first 2 rounds.

The read me file is great, very informative. Thanks for all input as I am addicted like many of you out there. Also, Moscow allures me much less now in September.

Montenegro

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 2:25 pm

Big Bug. I have just tried wir 3.2 with possum 4 installed over it and have found that when you play Russian the dreaded 'you cannot transfer units out of HQs with lots of units in them' bug which was in versions 1 and 2 of wir is back. It makes the 3.2 version of wir unplayable from the Russian side.
Has anyone else noticed this? Has anyone got the latest version of wir 1.1 somewherer for me to copy?

loveman · Post by **loveman** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 5:40 pm

I to have noticed the transferring divisions bug in v3.2.
u cannot transfer them with less than 50% rediness, unless by rail.

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 7:43 pm

I can live with it as long as the old bug is not back.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 8:23 pm

Originally posted by loveman
I to have noticed the transferring divisions bug in v3.2. u cannot transfer them with less than 50% rediness, unless by rail.

This is not a bug. The game prevents you from transferring units with less than 50% readiness. This restriction was expanded in v3.2 to include HQ to HQ transfers. If you want to blame someone for this, blame me, I was the one who brought this issue up with the beta team. I had been using this exploit to transfer new units out of STAVKA and RVGK all the way to Leningrad or Rostov in one turn by transfering units HQ to HQ, in a daisy chain. Because there was no minimum readiness level for transferrs between HQs, this exploit made it easy for the Soviets to rapidly spread their forces out all along the front.

Yes, that's right, I, the self proclaimed exploit expert, had been using from the beginning what I later had to admit was a cheat. This just proves anyone is susceptible to the power of the Dark Side....

davewolf · Post by **davewolf** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 9:01 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn
This just proves anyone is susceptible to the power of the Dark Side....

LUKE: Is the dark side stronger?

YODA: No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

Micha · Post by **Micha** » Sat Mar 30, 2002 3:22 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn

This is not a bug. The game prevents you from transferring units with less than 50% readiness.

Okay, I understand the reason why this rule was implemented.
But I would be very happy if another way to prevent the mentioned exploit could be found, because now in bad weather there is no chance to transfer divisions between korps (or corps between armies). In earlier versions I could at least rail-transfer divisions to the HQs and spread them from there to the korps I wanted to strengthen, but even that is impossible now. So the Germans for instance have to fight through the winter almost without being able to make changes in their korps' structures - I think this is not very realistic, either.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sat Mar 30, 2002 5:06 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn

This is not a bug. The game prevents you from transferring units with less than 50% readiness. This restriction was expanded in v3.2 to include HQ to HQ transfers. If you want to blame someone for this, blame me, I was the one who brought this issue up with the beta team. I had been using this exploit to transfer new units out of STAVKA and RVGK all the way to Leningrad or Rostov in one turn by transfering units HQ to HQ, in a daisy chain. Because there was no minimum readiness level for transferrs between HQs, this exploit made it easy for the Soviets to rapidly spread their forces out all along the front.

Yes, that's right, I, the self proclaimed exploit expert, had been using from the beginning what I later had to admit was a cheat. This just proves anyone is susceptible to the power of the Dark Side....

Ed

This is a rule i'd like to address. What the overall transfer rule is saying is that if an Inf Div for example is at 49% then it cannot move by transfer (rear area march?) But in reality if said division were at half supply and midway between 'fresh' and 'totally exhausted' it could still make 15 miles a day (for 5 hexes a week) Just about any army on earth could manage such a feat, let alone some of the elite troops represented in this game.
The lower limmit should i think be 25% (not 50%)
If the player wishes to exhaust his troops then it should be his option to do so, not freeze so many units in place that realistically could move.

Adjusting HQ's into line with regular transfer is fine, it's the actual 50% limmit that is unrealistic.

Loki

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Mar 30, 2002 5:59 am

Originally posted by Micha

Okay, I understand the reason why this rule was implemented.
But I would be very happy if another way to prevent the mentioned exploit could be found, because now in bad weather there is no chance to transfer divisions between korps (or corps between armies). In earlier versions I could at least rail-transfer divisions to the HQs and spread them from there to the korps I wanted to strengthen, but even that is impossible now.

No it isn't. You can still rail transfer regardless of readiness.

Secondly, any unit, except Germans in blizzard conditions, can reach 50% readiness if they stay still for 1 or 2 turns.

As for the Gemans in blizzard, don't forget you can use special supply to get units above 50% if a move is really necessary. If that isn't enough, then you suffer

, sorry, but that is what is supposed to happen to the Germans in blizzard conditions.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Mar 30, 2002 6:23 am

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir

Ed

This is a rule i'd like to address. What the overall transfer rule is saying is that if an Inf Div for example is at 49% then it cannot move by transfer (rear area march?) But in reality if said division were at half supply and midway between 'fresh' and 'totally exhausted' it could still make 15 miles a day (for 5 hexes a week)

Just physically moving the unit from point A to point B is not the most important part I think. There is an organizational/logistical/CCC cost to transferring units around from one command to another willy-nilly.

The lower limmit should i think be 25% (not 50%). If the player wishes to exhaust his troops then it should be his option to do so

This would allow movement in excess of 10 squares in one turn. 3 jumps so to speak, from corps to HQ, then HQ to HQ, then another HQ to HQ jump. Even the 50% limit allows 2 jumps in circumstances where the unit starts at 99% readiness and is close to the first HQ, and its good weather. So its not just a matter of the player being willing to exhaust a unit, its a matter of how far HQ-to-HQ transfers should be allowed. Does moving an infantry division 15 squares in one turn make sense to you?

Does this rule make things difficult? Yes, for the Soviets in '41 and for Germans in blizzard conditions, but those situations are *supposed* to be difficult. That and the fact 15 square movement (for non-mobile units) is possible with a 25% readiness limit still makes me think the 50% limit is best.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sat Mar 30, 2002 2:03 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn
.... Does moving an infantry division 15 squares in one turn make sense to you?

[/B]

I was actually only refering to a unit being able to march straight out of a HQ 'cross country.
If a unit is not labeled by the programe as 'used' after one transfer move then that is a fault in the transfer rules not related to readiness and thus produces the 15 hex move you mentioned.

Why 'is' a a unit not labeled as 'used' if it transfers (not rail) HQ to HQ.?

Loki

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Mar 30, 2002 4:12 pm

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir

If a unit is not labeled by the programe as 'used' after one transfer move then that is a fault in the transfer rules not related to readiness and thus produces the 15 hex move you mentioned.

I suppose you could argue that a one-hop rule be used in place of a minimum readiness limit, but this would not be easy to do since AFAIK there is no 'used' flag for divisions and battalions. Their readiness *is* their 'used' flag. Making a readiness check is very easy and inexpensive in the code, so, although a one-jump limit might be a good idea, I hesitate to agree with that because this is something that, while not perfect, is not really broken either, and a one jump limit would require more code and data to implement.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sat Mar 30, 2002 7:11 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn

I suppose you could argue that a one-hop rule be used in place of a minimum readiness limit, but this would not be easy to do since AFAIK there is no 'used' flag for divisions and battalions. Their readiness *is* their 'used' flag. Making a readiness check is very easy and inexpensive in the code, so, although a one-jump limit might be a good idea, I hesitate to agree with that because this is something that, while not perfect, is not really broken either, and a one jump limit would require more code and data to implement.

OK

Loki

Micha · Post by **Micha** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 2:28 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn

You can still rail transfer regardless of readiness.

Secondly, any unit, except Germans in blizzard conditions, can reach 50% readiness if they stay still for 1 or 2 turns.

As for the Gemans in blizzard, don't forget you can use special supply to get units above 50% if a move is really necessary. If that isn't enough, then you suffer , sorry, but that is what is supposed to happen to the Germans in blizzard conditions.

I am still not convinced. Rail transfer is not very useful because normally the front (or the fall-back position) is not situated on rail lines.
And believe me, the german divisions do not reach 50% readiness in snow conditions even when they stay still for one or two turns unless they are directly on rail hexes with SL6.
I guess I could boost the readiness with special supply, but this will drop my HQ's OP under 50, so it is rarely an advisable option.

My opinion is: If the whole korps can march several hexes even though the divisions in it are below 50% readiness it does not make sense that the respective divisions cannot move from one hex to the another korps in an adjacent hex.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:28 am

Originally posted by Micha

And believe me, the german divisions do not reach 50% readiness in snow conditions

I can't believe you because you are factually incorrect. Try it yourself. Leave a unit alone for 2 turns during snow and they do recover to better than 50%. There is only a problem when:

a) The unit was near 0% to start with in clear or snow condiftions. This just means it will take an extra turn or 2 to get to 50%.

b) The unit is in consecutive mud conditions, and ended with low readiness on the turn prior to the mud starting. A unit that stays still loses only a small level of readiness, less than 10%, so if it entered the mud turns with 70% to 80% readiness, it can still transfer units during 2 or 3 turns of mud, before all units go below 50%.

c) A german unit in consecutive blizzard conditions

I guess I could boost the readiness with special supply, but this will drop my HQ's OP under 50, so it is rarely an advisable option.

Only if you're attacking that turn. If you're planning no attacks, which is likely during mud, its not a problem if your HQs go below 50.

My opinion is: If the whole korps can march several hexes even though the divisions in it are below 50% readiness it does not make sense that the respective divisions cannot move from one hex to the another korps in an adjacent hex.

Like I said to Loki, there is more to this than just the physical movement, there are operational, logistical and C3 issues involved as well. I also said trying to implement a one transfer rule would be expensive in terms of code and data needed. There is no 'used' flag available for divisions. We would have to add it to each division and battalion in the game, and I'm sure you're aware of just how many divisions and battalions there are in this game. I'm pretty sure the game doesn't use bitfields to store data, so these flags would have to be stored as bytes, meaning more runtime memory needed, and breaking compatibility with current scenarios.

Micha · Post by **Micha** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:17 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn

1.) I can't believe you because you are factually incorrect. Try it yourself. Leave a unit alone for 2 turns during snow and they do recover to better than 50%.

2.) there is more to this than just the physical movement, there are operational, logistical and C3 issues involved as well.

3.) I also said trying to implement a one transfer rule would be expensive in terms of code and data needed. There is no 'used' flag available for divisions. We would have to add it to each division and battalion in the game, and I'm sure you're aware of just how many divisions and battalions there are in this game. I'm pretty sure the game doesn't use bitfields to store data, so these flags would have to be stored as bytes, meaning more runtime memory needed, and breaking compatibility with current scenarios.

1.) I have made a test. I took four typical german korps' (4 inf div, 1 Pz bn) with readiness of about 90% and moved them six hexes to a destination hex of a SL6, 5, 4 and 3, respectively, and the divisions arrived there with about 25% readiness. Only the divisions in the korps at SL6 were >50% after two turns, and the ones at SL5 after another turn. At SL4 it took 7 or 8 turns, and the divs at SL3 did not get above 50% during the whole test (at least 10 weeks, with one blizzard in between).
During a normal game korps' cannot always be placed at SL6 hexes, and because of combat and moves the div's readiness may well drop far below the 25% with which I began the test. So I maintain my opinion that this rule makes it very hard to re-organise the German Army when it is necessary, which it usually is during a russian winter offensive (and this is exactly what I experienced in a PBEM game).

2.) I know that transferring divisions is a complex issue, but I fail to see why the readiness of the troops should have much of an influence on that. If there is enough control to move whole Korps then transferring single divisions should not be an impossible task, and the officers in charge of the paperwork are usually not the ones out there in the snow.

3.) Perhaps a solution could be to take 30% )or something like that) readiness as the magic number? It won't happen very often that divisions, after being transferred over the same number of hexes that its original korps could have moved, will still have higher readiness than that.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 11:02 am

Originally posted by Micha

1.) I have made a test. I took four typical german korps' (4 inf div, 1 Pz bn) with readiness of about 90% and moved them six hexes to a destination hex of a SL6, 5, 4 and 3, respectively, and the divisions arrived there with about 25% readiness.

I was testing via plot movement. Operational movement is more expensive, yes.

So I maintain my opinion that this rule makes it very hard to re-organise the German Army

Its equally hard for the Soviets too. Neither side is getting an advantage here.

2.) I know that transferring divisions is a complex issue, but I fail to see why the readiness of the troops should have much of an influence on that. If there is enough control to move whole Korps then transferring single divisions should not be an impossible task

Moving the whole Korps does not involved units changing command. The minimum requirement may be there because a corps that ends its movement at 0% is effectively simply not there. A minimum requirement is there so that when the unit is assigned to its new command, at least part of the unit is physically in its new location.

3.) Perhaps a solution could be to take 30% (or something like that) readiness as the magic number?

Ok, I'll bring this up in the group, but I doubt we'll change this, or at least not change it the way you want to. Yes, it is hard to make reorganizations because of this, but if we relax the rule, it means units can routinely move further in transfer movement than they could in operational or plot movement.

Possum · Post by **Possum** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 11:53 am

Two points being overlooked.
First.
The great majority of the units appearing in RGVK
should be appearing spread out between the Front H.Q.s, as they are in fact 2nd echelon units being mobilized in their respective military districts.
Only units being rebuilt, and units being transferred in from off map M.D.'s should be appearing in RGVK.
I left the these units appering in RGVK, in my custom OBWIR, as that way the player could chose for himself where to have the new units appear, by the simple expedient of transferring them to the desired HQ as they appeared.
I am currently going through and seeing how regional mobilization works with possum v5
( So far it seems to for divisions, the indipendent batallions, however, appear in RGVK regardless of what I do.)
Second.
The computer player is losing reinforcing units in RGVK, because it cannot transferr them out fast enought; Thus causing them to pile up in a backlog
This can also be a problem for a human player, if the human player fails to clear RGVK every turn of eligable units.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 5:07 pm

Originally posted by Micha

.....So I maintain my opinion that this rule makes it very hard to re-organise the German Army when it is necessary, which it usually is during a russian winter offensive (and this is exactly what I experienced in a PBEM game)........

Micha

Yes it does.
One answer is to decide on the 1st turn of november if further advance will benefit the axis or if they would be prudent in reorganising the line at that time.
I rarely if ever continue attacking past that date Unless I've got moscow nearly surrounded or something similar.
Many games have taught me how to strip all the sub division units and pz units from the line to positions in the rear before blizzard hits. Then take the brunt of it with an infantry line at 40 to 50% readiness.(the optimum for blizzard defence)
In all cases so far the panzers have been kept safe during blizzard. Leaving them ready to shread the soviet line in summer '42 and carry the game.
This strategy can cost as much as 25K of inf squads (the worst i've suffered) over the blizzard period. (this of course depends on how much you have damaged the soviet army up to that time)
But by may/june a lot of this is recovered
and the Pz arm should be nearly twice as strong as it was the previous year (if production has been managed).

Loki

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 5:48 pm

Originally posted by Possum
Second.
The computer player is losing reinforcing units in RGVK, because it cannot transferr them out fast enought; Thus causing them to pile up in a backlog
This can also be a problem for a human player, if the human player fails to clear RGVK every turn of eligable units.

This has been happening from the very beginning, long before this last change.

We may try using a much higher readiness penalty for transferring units, which could allow us to ease or eliminate the minimum readiness penalty.