IJN Small Combattants

[Q-Ball]

Does anyone have photos or information on some of the small IJN escort classes? I have seen some info on the Combined Fleet site, but hunger for more, particularly photos or ship profiles. I know many of the PG's are old Momi-class DD's that had a boiler and some armament removed, but I don't know anything about the PC Ch classes, or the larger MSW classes meant to double as escorts.

As an IJN player, I rely heavily on those to keep convoys safe, and wish I had more.

[DuckofTindalos]

Anything in particular you're looking for? Combinedfleet.com is excellent...

[Q-Ball]

I would say any Photos would rock, also history around the classes.

I am also interested in the IJN DD-Lites and what they are about, specifically the Ootoris, Tomodzurus, and Wakatakes. The Wakatakes are old post WWI DD's, but I read somewhere the Tomodzurus and Ootoris were an early-30's attempt by the IJN to build DD capability on a smaller displacement. The Tomodzurus might have been under the 600-ton treaty limit at which point there were no restrictions, but I can't verify that. That would explain their lack of speed OR armament. The IJN was unhappy with the Ootoris and Tomodzurus, and decided to produce fleet DD's instead from what I understand.

[DuckofTindalos]

The Tomozuru and Otori classes were classified as torpedo boats by the IJN, but were in reality small destroyers. Tomozuru class was about 535 tons standard displacement and built (4 units) between 11/33 and 11/34. Their problem was extreme topweight (the Tomozuru capsized from this during sea trials, but was recovered). Whole class was rebuilt with lighter armament to reduced topweight. Screenshot is of the Manazuru:

[Tiornu]

Warship VIII had a series on the Kaibokan program, an effort that defines the phrase "too little, too late."

[DuckofTindalos]

The Otoris were built as enlarged Tomozurus (about 200 tons heavier), between 10/36 and 9/37. By what I could find, they incorporated the lessons of the Tomozurus by being constructed with lighter armament and thus less topweight. Eight units were commissioned, and all but one sunk (the Kiji being transferred to the USSR in 1947). This is the Sagi:

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

Warship VIII had a series on the Kaibokan program, an effort that defines the phrase "too little, too late."

Yup. The Type C and D Kaibokans were built in 1944-45 and were structurally identical, aside from the fact that the Type C's were diesel powered whilst the type D's were turbine powered. Thus, the D's had substantially shorter range than the C's. Weapons fit was identical. Like Tiornu implied, the program should have been started much sooner and been much bigger. The screenshot is No.17, a Type C:

[Tiornu]

The Tomozuru and Otori classes were classified as torpedo boats by the IJN, but were in reality small destroyers.

To be historically less quibbleable, I'd say destroyers are in reality big torpedo boats.

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, yeah...

[Tiornu]

So I'll stop quibbling.
By the way, have any of you guys written to Conway Maritime Press about Campbell's Naval Weapons of World War One? Maybe I should start a new thread.

[mikemike]

I've found line drawings of several IJN escort classes. Here is the Matsu class DD:

[mikemike]

... and the UKURU class:

[mikemike]

The Type D kaibokan:

[mikemike]

Subchaser Class Ch4:

[mikemike]

Subchaser Class Ch13:

[mikemike]

Auxiliary subchaser Class Cha-1, which is not in WitP but of which about 200 were built: wooden construction, displacement 135 ts, speed 11 kts, 85 x 18,5 ft, originally armed with one 7,7 mm MG and 22 depth charges, armament was increased to 2X25 mm Type 96 guns.

[Q-Ball]

Those line drawing ROCK! Thanks! AND, that brings up a good point on the Cha-1 class; if the Allies get SC's, why doesn't Japan get the Cha-1? Obviously there isn't much to it, but anything with depth charges can kill a sub.

Wonder what DC's they carried, the Type 91, 95, or Type 2?

[HansenII]

Hi Q-Ball!
The Ootori's and Tomodzurus are a result of the 1922 Washington Treaty which allowed for a more or less unlimeted number of warships below 600tons displacement (or thereabouts). In other Navies, i.e. German Navy (Raubvogel-Class Torpedoboats), French Navy (don't get the name straight without reference...), Italian Navy (Ariete Class and several others) this type of "Destroyer Light" enjoyed quite some popularity due to lower costs etc. Later these units proved too lightly build and/or too small to adapt to the changing environment (i.e. aircraft/aaa). In fact, the class-ship Tomodzuu (spelled right?) capzised in a heavy storm due to being top heavy (before WWII). This did lead to mayor reconstruction of destroyer of the IJN (Tomozuru-incident).

If you can lay you're hands on a "Conway all the world fighting ships 1922-46", you'll get some pretty good sketch.

Later destroyers light of the IJN are pretty much the same as the first Rudderrows but with more emphasis on surface to surface action rather than anti-sub, mainly build to replace lost fleet destroyers. I can remember only one incident in which one of those light destroyers of the IJN scored a torpedo hit against a surface unit of the US Navy.
German Torpedoboats where a bit more succesful (one RN cruiser and 3 destroyers), but in the end went all down anyway. So, pretty much a waste of effort, to build destroyers on the cheap.....

Regards

[JWE]

The czechs seem to have a lot of info on War-2 ship types. There isn't a lot of detail on this particular site version, but it has quite a few photos and drawings, especially of the smaller combatants, for just about everybody. The main site "warships.web4u.cz" is a goldmine.

http://warships.web4u.cz/showimg.php

JWE

[Tiornu]

By the time the Matsus and Tachibanas started into service, the opportunities to torpedo American ships had all but evaporated. It's correct to note that only one of these small destroyers scored a torpedo hit during the war, but think of it this way--during that same period, that one hit was the ONLY torpedo hit scored by any Japanese surface ship.
The prewar German torpedo boats were reasonable designs. The wartime T-boats were very poor, an attempt to get more capability than an S-boat could provide, but I'd much rather have an equal tonnage of S-boats rather than the T-boats.