Russian OB request not noted

[el cid again]

On the Russian OB thread I posted a query which drew no response.

A small number of units could be added to the Soviet Army in 1942 - if we could identify them properly - and date them - and place them.

This is complicated because a reorganization occurs - and we don't want (say) an artillery organization drawn from existing ones to appear (in effect duplicating some of the elements). It does appear there is no actual change in armored formations at all before 1945 - de facto (vice possibly theoretical TO&E). Vehicles upgrade in 1944 - which is fine - code lets that happen - and it happens rather earlier in fact. But new infantry or artillery formations that are NOT part of either existing or future (code) organizations we can add - if we can identify them. We have exactly one day to do so before RHS Levels 5 and 6 freeze for an extended period.

[Bliztk]

Here you have the suggested corrections that Treespider made

Here is my suggested slot allocations for the Far Eastern Front and the reasons why:

2175 – Sahkalin Rifle Corps (replaces 82nd PVO)– Represents ‘At Start’ 79 Rifle Division, 101 Rifle Division, SAKHALIN Rifle Brigade

2176 – Far Eastern Front Artillery Corps (Replaces 83rd PVO)– Represents ‘At Start’ 181 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 362 Artillery Battalion, 367 Artillery Battalion; Jul 42 - 428 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 1137 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, KHABAROVSK Artillery Battalion, 362 Artillery Battalion, 367 Artillery Battalion

2185 – 8th Cav Division (no change) – No change other than possible location

2189 – 56 Rifle Corps (replaces 39 Rifle Div) – Arrives Dec 43

2190 – 5 Rifle Corps ( replaces 59 Rifle Div) – Represents ‘At Start’ 35 Rifle Division, 66 Rifle Division, Amur. Rifle Regiment; Jul 42 – 35 Rifle Division, 66 Rifle Division, 422 Rifle Division, 246 Rifle Brigade, 248 Rifle Brigade

2191 – 26 Rifle Corps (replaces 1st Rifle Bde) – Represents ‘At Start’ 22 Rifle Division, 59 Rifle Division, GRODEKOVA Rifle Division

2192 – 59 Rifle Corps (replaces 4th Rifle Bde) – Represents ‘At Start’ 39 Rifle Division, SPAASK (98) Rifle Division

2193 – 17 Rifle Corps ( replaces 5th Rifle Bde) – Represents ‘At Start’ Poltava Rifle Division; Jul 42 - 190 Rifle Division, 261 Rifle Brigade, 262 Rifle Brigade

2194 – 102 Region Fort – No change

2195 – Free

2196 – 25th Army Art Corps ( Replaces 273rd Gun Regt) – Represents ‘At Start’ 215 Artillery Regiment, 282 Artillery Regiment, 386 Artillery Regiment, 548 Artillery Regiment, 549 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 21 Mortar Battalion

2197 – Free

2198 – 45 Rifle Corps (replaces 549 Howitzer rgt) – August Storm reinforcement arrives June 21

2199 – 12th Aviation Rgt – No change

2200 – (new) 204 Rifle Division

2201 – 10 Mech Corps (replace 59 Tank Bde) – August Storm

2202 – 1st Army Tank Corps (replaces 69 Motorized Bde) – Represents ‘At Start’ - 2 (USSURIISK) TD, 75 Tank Brigade, 77 Tank Brigade, Motorized Rifle Brigade

2203 – 3 Rifle Division (same) – Represents 2nd Army 3rd RD.

2204 – 12 Rifle Division (same) – Represents 2nd Army 12th RD

2205 – 101 Region Fort (same)

2206 – 15 Army Art Div (replaces 42nd Gun Rgt) – August Storm

2207 – 2 Red Banner Army Art Div (replaces 550 Howitzer Regt) – Represents ‘At Start’ 42 Artillery Regiment, 114 Artillery Regiment, 411 Artillery Regiment, 550 HOW Artillery Regiment, 192 Artillery Battalion, 22 Mortar Battalion

2208 – 10 Aviation Regt (same)

2209 – 105 Region Fort (new)

2210 – 34 Rifle Division (same)

2211 – 111 Region Fort (replaces 115 Region)

2212 – 65 Rifle Corps (replaces 52 Gun Rgt) – August Storm

2213 - 25 Army Tank Corps (replaces 76 Gun Rgt) – Represents ‘At Start’ 72 Tank Brigade, 76 Tank Brigade; JUL – 42 represents 72 Tank Brigade, 76 Tank Brigade, 302 Tank Battalion; FEB – 43 represents 72 Tank Brigade, 76 Tank Brigade, 302 Tank Battalion, 218 Tank Brigade, 382 Tank Battalion

2214 – 10 Air Army EAB (same)

2215 – 112 Region Fort (new)

2216 – 72 Rifle Corps (replaces 32 Rifle Division) – August Storm

2217 – 39 Rifle Corps (replaces 40 Rifle Division) – Represents ‘At Start’ 40 Rifle Division, 105 Rifle Division, 208 Rifle Division, VOROSHILOV Rifle Division

2218 – 87 Rifle Corps (replaces 92 Rifle Division) – Dec 43

2219 – 88 Rifle Corps (replaces 105 Rifle Division) – Feb 43

2220 – Far Eastern Front Engineer Brigade (replaces 32nd Engr Regt) – Represents Far Eastern Front engineer units

2221 – 106 Region Fort (same)

2222 – 107 Region Fort (same)

2223 – 108 Region Fort (same)

2224 – 110 Region Fort(same)

2225 – Vladivostok Fort(same)

2226 – 5 Army Art Div (replaces 282 Gun Rgt) – August Storm

2227 – 1st Red Banner Army Art Div (replaces 548 Gun Rgt) – Represents ‘At Start’ 50 Corps Artillery Regiment, 273 Corps Artillery Regiment, 165 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 199 Howitzer Artillery Regiment

2228 – 9 Air Army (same)

2229 – 9 Aviation Regt (same)

2235 – 35 Army Tank Div (replaces 312 Rifle Division) – Represents ‘At Start’ 29 Motor cycle Regt, JUL – 42 represents 125 Tank Brigade, 172 Tank Brigade, 29 Motorcycle Regiment

2245 – 2 Army Tank Corps (replaces 313 Rifle Division) – Represents ‘At Start’ 73 Tank Brigade, 74 Tank Brigade; FEB – 43 represents 73 Tank Brigade, 74 Tank Brigade, 672 Tank Battalion, 673 Tank Battalion, 674 Tank Battalion, 676 Tank Battalion

2277 – 15 Army Tank Div (replaces 8th Rgt) – Represents ‘At Start’1 (AMUR) Tank Division, JUL 42 – represents 165 Tank Brigade, 171 Tank Brigade, 677 Tank Battalion

2293 – 28 Soviet Air (same)

2306 – 27 Soviet Air (same)

2321 – 26 Soviet Air (same)

2372 – Okha Naval Fort (same

3447 – Petropavlosk Fort (same)

[Bliztk]

Here are the Trans Baikal Front suggestions

Here is my suggested slot allocations for the Trans Baikal Front and the reasons why:

2163 (New) – 85 Rifle Corps – Represents 36 & 57 Motorized Div and 1 & 3 Mot Reg. These units were in 17th Army throughout the war until August Storm and formed 85 Corps Dec 43

2164 – 2nd Rifle Corps ( replaces 35th Rifle Division) (Upgrades to 2nd Rifle Corps)– Represents 97 & 116 RD & Airborne Battalion which are present at start, Then represents the 2nd RC arrives July 42 as the 97 & 116 RD & Airborne have left

2165 – 86 Rifle Corps (replaces 66th Rifle division) (Upgrades to 86 Rifle Corps) – Represents 94, 209 & 210 RD which eventually form 86 RC

2166, 2167 and 2168 will be occupied by the 5th Gd Rifle Corps, 94th Rifle corps and 113th Rifle Corps all of which are August Storm Reinforcements. (replacing 78, 79 and 101 Mountain Division)

2169 – Trans Baikal Engineer Brigade – Represents various engineer elements assigned to trans Baikal Front

2170 – 3 Gd Art Div – August Storm reinforcement

2171 – 6 Gd Art Div – August Storm reinforcement

2172 – 17th Army Art Corps – 20% At start strength – Represents At Start 185 Gun Artillery Regiment, By Jul 42 increases in strength to represent 185 Gun Artillery Regiment, 1141 Gun Artillery Regiment, 413 Howitzer Artillery Regiment and in Feb 43 represents 185 Gun Artillery Regiment, 624 Gun Artillery Regiment, 629 Gun Artillery Regiment, 1141 Gun Artillery Regiment, 413 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 178 Mortar Regiment

2173 – 36 Army Art Corps –Represents At Start 267 Corps Artillery Regiment, 390 Corps Artillery Regiment, 14 Mortar Battalion, July 42 - 259 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 267 Gun Artillery Regiment, 390 Gun Artillery Regiment, 1233 Gun Artillery Regiment, 177 Mortar regiment

Slot 2174 – Tr-Bkl Cavalry Division (replaces 81st PVO) – Represents the 51st and later the 59th Cavalry Division

2175 – Far Eastern Front - Sahkalin Rifle Corps (replaces 82nd PVO)– Represents ‘At Start’ 79 Rifle Division, 101 Rifle Division, SAKHALIN Rifle Brigade

2176 – Far Eastern Front Artillery Corps (Replaces 83rd PVO)– Represents ‘At Start’ 181 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 362 Artillery Battalion, 367 Artillery Battalion; Jul 42 - 428 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 1137 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, KHABAROVSK Artillery Battalion, 362 Artillery Battalion, 367 Artillery Battalion

Slot 2177 – 31 Fortified Region ( Replaces 103rd region)

Slot 2178 – 32 Fortified Region ( Replaces 104th region)

Slot 2179 - Free – Could be used for reinforcement or separate AA units

Slot 2180 12th Air Army Base Force

Slot 2181 - Tr-Bkl Front Art.Corps – Represents At Start 106 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 216 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 413 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 13 Mortar Battalion, Jul 42 - 106 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, high power, 1146 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, high power, 216 Howitzer Artillery Regiment, *1142 Gun Artillery Regiment, 1143 Gun Artillery Regiment, 176 Mortar Regiment, 178 Mortar Regiment, 32 Guards Mortar Regiment

Slot 2182 - 17th Army Tank Corps – Represents At Start 61 Tank Division, 9 Motorized Armored Brigade, 30 Motorcycle Regiment, 82 Tank Battalion, July 42 - 61 Tank Division, 43 Tank Brigade, 9 Motorized Armored Brigade, 30 Motorcycle Regiment, 70 Tank Battalion, 82 Tank Battalion, Feb 43 - 61 Tank Division, 43 Tank Brigade, 9 Motorized Armored Brigade, 30 Motorcycle Regiment, 68 Tank Battalion, 70 Tank Battalion, 82 Tank Battaion

Slot 2183 - 111 Tank Division

Slot 2184 - Tr-Bkl Front TankCorps – Represents 33 Tank Battalion, 35 Tank Battalion of 36th Army, Jul 42 - 44 Tank Brigade, 205 Tank Brigade, 206 Tank Brigade 33 Tank Battalion, 35 Tank Battalion, Feb 43 – Same

2185 – 8th Cav Division (no change) – No change other than possible location

2186 9 Mech Corps Aug. Storm
2187 7 Mech Corps Aug-Storm
2188 3 Mech Corps Aug-Storm

[el cid again]

The problem is these recommendations are not what I need: they seem focused on the EVENTUAL Red Army - not at supplimenting the 1941 version of it in 1942. Saying this unit includes the at start xyz unit plus four or five others means that it hardly can properly represent the 1941 situation - only the 1945 situation. And since artillery was reorganized in 1942 - you get lots of formations that do not mean an increase in tubes. Armor - if you count vehicles - is stable for the war as a whole (at least until the very end) - and artillery is almost the same. That means the 1941 artillery and armor is pretty much good to go - and any exception should be noted. What I seek is the infantry additions - if any - as alleged on the Soviet Army thread. ID, date, location, strength - not a list for 1945 but for earlier - and the earlier the more important.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The problem is these recommendations are not what I need: they seem focused on the EVENTUAL Red Army - not at supplimenting the 1941 version of it in 1942. Saying this unit includes the at start xyz unit plus four or five others means that it hardly can properly represent the 1941 situation - only the 1945 situation. And since artillery was reorganized in 1942 - you get lots of formations that do not mean an increase in tubes. Armor - if you count vehicles - is stable for the war as a whole (at least until the very end) - and artillery is almost the same. That means the 1941 artillery and armor is pretty much good to go - and any exception should be noted. What I seek is the infantry additions - if any - as alleged on the Soviet Army thread. ID, date, location, strength - not a list for 1945 but for earlier - and the earlier the more important.

I developed this suggested OOB to represent the Jan 1942 OOB while at the same time accounting for reinforcements through 1942 into 1943 and further still adapting it to the August Storm 1945 changes that are hardcoded. I simply consolidated the starting INF into a corps structure to acheive a compromise with the changes that will take place in 1945.

So in the end my suggestion would not only strengthen the current Stock starting Soviet OOB but would also conserve precious slots instead of using them on a front which IMO should remain inactive. The only reason it becomes active in some games is because the Soviets are so woefully underrepresented to start with.

Take it or leave it...

[Bliztk]

You are not correct in the Tank/armoured forces department. The WitP OOB is **very** weak for the Soviets.

In Witp you have the russians with:
2 Mot Bdes
3 Tank Bdes

1 Jan 42 should have
2 Tank Divisions
6 Tank Bde
1 Motorized Rifle Bde
1 Motorcycle Bde

1 July 42 should have
15 Tank Bde
1 Motorized Rifle Bde
1 Motorcycle Bde
5 Tank Bn

Take note that the Russians reorganized their TOE three times, first disbanding Corps, then divisions and creating Brigades, and when CIC improved mid 42, started to rebuild Divisions, and Corps because the officers could control them effectively.

While the Far East Forces used a lot of Lend Lease tanks, the reasoning behind this was totally correct.

Those tanks are too weak to fight Germans, but are fully adecuate to fight weak (in AT dept) Japanese in a defensive operation, as Red Army planned contingency plans for Far East until mid 43 where it started to pour forces for a more aggresive stance.

If you use the guideline that Treespider suggested, with several corps starting undestregth, and getting them recieve replacements until they grow in a full TOE Corps are a nice and realistically way of representing the Soviet buildup with fresh forces of the FE

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The problem is these recommendations are not what I need: they seem focused on the EVENTUAL Red Army - not at supplimenting the 1941 version of it in 1942. Saying this unit includes the at start xyz unit plus four or five others means that it hardly can properly represent the 1941 situation - only the 1945 situation. And since artillery was reorganized in 1942 - you get lots of formations that do not mean an increase in tubes. Armor - if you count vehicles - is stable for the war as a whole (at least until the very end) - and artillery is almost the same. That means the 1941 artillery and armor is pretty much good to go - and any exception should be noted. What I seek is the infantry additions - if any - as alleged on the Soviet Army thread. ID, date, location, strength - not a list for 1945 but for earlier - and the earlier the more important.

I developed this suggested OOB to represent the Jan 1942 OOB while at the same time accounting for reinforcements through 1942 into 1943 and further still adapting it to the August Storm 1945 changes that are hardcoded. I simply consolidated the starting INF into a corps structure to acheive a compromise with the changes that will take place in 1945.

So in the end my suggestion would not only strengthen the current Stock starting Soviet OOB but would also conserve precious slots instead of using them on a front which IMO should remain inactive. The only reason it becomes active in some games is because the Soviets are so woefully underrepresented to start with.

Take it or leave it...

It was not clear that the list was meant to represent January 1942 - which is indeed the time frame of interest.
It also is not clear how we can reconcile the lack of change in things like tanks and artillery tube counts with this list?
But NOTHING I have looked at OB wise - in stock or in CHS - was without significant issues. Surely the Soviets are very second hand children given the widely held view (which you seem to share) that they "shoud remain inactive." If inactive - and if the stock garrison rule is adequate - why waste slots on them? No Navy either. No long range air force. No naval air force. But in my view the garrison rule - which does not include Japanese air units - and which permits "violation" without significant penalty - is woefully inadequate. Worse - this front was already active twice since 1938 - and the scene of intense territorial rivalry for a century. It was anything but clear to the Russians or the Japanese it "must remain inactive." In fact - it did NOT remain inactive at all - and I subscribe to the theory advanced by some (non-Soviet) historians that it was the invasion by the Red Army that ended the war - not the atom bombing of Hiroshima. [Nagasaki was not a factor for sure: the decision was made before news of that attack reached the Imperial Conference] The real question we face - if we are interested in history - is WHEN MIGHT this front go active? Not if - but when? And lots of things in the hypothetical game worlds of our players might not answer that question "August 1945." IJA - possibly unwisely - always planned to attack the USSR - and only diverted from that "temporairily" due to a shortage of oil (with the resultant need to get some). Such an attack is very likely - and only declines over time if the Soviets get stronger - and perhaps the IJA grows weaker. By late war a Soviet attack is very likely - and tieing it to a fixed date is very ahistorical in my view - permitting planning to have a very unrealistic context (for both sides). Mid war is a toss up - with some risk - and perhaps not as great a risk as in 1942 or 1945. But risk is the opposite of an iron rule "it must not be active." The possibility must exist or there is NO risk. Having added the missing navy and air forces - and also special ground forces (marines, airborne) - I didn't want to overlook the option of adding more ground units - now I know how many slots are available (having done Level 7 OB I know for sure what is left). I am not entirely opposed to using corps - it is imposed on us in 1945 anyway - but I think this is not the best way to go because it prevents proper defense of the vast borders of the USSR - or realistic garrisons either (you must put a corps or nothing in any hex - not ideal at all). But this is not a big problem: I can divide a corps up if I have the slots to do so: what units should be present when? I am MUCH more interested in the allegedly missing reinforcements - and so far I have NO actual recommendations for them. If you wish to say the starting OB is also wrong - fine - but that isn't the question on the table - or at least not the main one. And if I don't have a list in the form xyz corps in hex abcd on July 7, 1942, I won't have time to use it for this round.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

You are not correct in the Tank/armoured forces department. The WitP OOB is **very** weak for the Soviets.

In Witp you have the russians with:
2 Mot Bdes
3 Tank Bdes

1 Jan 42 should have
2 Tank Divisions
6 Tank Bde
1 Motorized Rifle Bde
1 Motorcycle Bde

1 July 42 should have
15 Tank Bde
1 Motorized Rifle Bde
1 Motorcycle Bde
5 Tank Bn

Take note that the Russians reorganized their TOE three times, first disbanding Corps, then divisions and creating Brigades, and when CIC improved mid 42, started to rebuild Divisions, and Corps because the officers could control them effectively.

While the Far East Forces used a lot of Lend Lease tanks, the reasoning behind this was totally correct.

Those tanks are too weak to fight Germans, but are fully adecuate to fight weak (in AT dept) Japanese in a defensive operation, as Red Army planned contingency plans for Far East until mid 43 where it started to pour forces for a more aggresive stance.

If you use the guideline that Treespider suggested, with several corps starting undestregth, and getting them recieve replacements until they grow in a full TOE Corps are a nice and realistically way of representing the Soviet buildup with fresh forces of the FE

You misread what I said - and I was quoting the Russian thread. I said "tank count" and I mean tanks as vehicles. I was talking IRL - not in the game. I made NO comment on the game OB. And - even were we to accept your values as perfect - they are not what I need: not a single unit is named, not a single location given, not a single date of apperance for the later units either. And no notes about TO&E. Nor do you seem to have picked up on the non-trivial reorganization: a brigade in 1941 is a whole lot different than a brigade in 1943. You get more brigades - but that does not mean more tanks per se. You seem to be thinking "division/brigade count = strength" - but for Red Army it does not. There were no more tanks at the end of 1944 than there were at the end of 1941 - and the only thing I need to know is if all of them are represented in 1941 - or are some missing? If so - what was missing. In RHS (and CHS and stock) you get a unit in the form it FIRST appears - not a later form - since we cannot reform it. [But we can upgrade the weapons/vehicles] [There is a tricky way to sort of "upgrade" a unit - invented by Joe Wilkerson - and we do that - but it is a technical exception - and you need data to attempt it - not just a brigade count] Adding a unit is complex - and possible only if you have all the data. I would not be offended with the names of commanders - but I absolutely need to know unit ID - heavy weapons count - location - and when it appears in that initial form? If it is a reformed unit - we ignore it altogether - since we do not duplicate.

[treespider]

Like I said take it or leave it...

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Like I said take it or leave it...

Well - thanks - I guess. If there is no specific data in enterable form - I cannot use it today - surely. I was only seeking ready to use material to fold in - if any exists. In the sense we added the Naval Infantry or the Airborne Brigade.

[el cid again]

Note that while the posted materials were not in immediate use form - they represent very fine integration of real world, game slot, and game OB data - and I will over time fold many of them - as time permits integration - more or less as "eratta" corrections. Having added the Navy, Long Range Air Force, Naval Air Force, much of the merchant marine, specialist units like Naval Infantry, airborne and air transports - and now adding armor in quantity in a way that allows us to see most of the tanks sooner or later - it seems appropriate to go the rest of the way and use as much of the land OB as we can. Not doing so makes the consequences of invading the USSR - or not garrisoning the North near it - far too small.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: treespider

Like I said take it or leave it...

Well - thanks - I guess. If there is no specific data in enterable form - I cannot use it today - surely. I was only seeking ready to use material to fold in - if any exists. In the sense we added the Naval Infantry or the Airborne Brigade.

Don't mistake Forrest's response for a lack of caring. The Soviet OoB in the CHS is a compromise given the limitation of the current database and a result of their status as a red-headed step child of the game's premise. As such severe restrictions and work arounds were necessary to "Make them work". Not the best, not the most correct, but the certainly the most effective as we saw it, given the limitations.

So, take it or leave it.

[el cid again]

My problem was time: I needed to know what could be entered that was clearly missing? Like "add the Naval Infantry Brigade" was done. The material here will require time to figure out what slots to put it in - as it does not add to the existing data set - but replaces it in part - and also must be in certain slots due to what hard code does. It is, however, very fine work - and I do not propose to redo the research it represents.