Slowing Allied ground idea

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el cid again
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I cant verify this, but its interesting anyway, unfortunately the USA, and other Nations, have a record of this type of arrangement:

"Colonel Masanobu Tsuji was a fanatical Japanese militarist and brutal warrior, then he became a US spy. He was hunted after World War II for massacres of Chinese civilians and complicity in the Bataan Death March. Newly declassified CIA records, released by the US National Archives and examined by The Associated Press, document more fully than ever how Tsuji and other suspected Japanese war criminals were recruited by US intelligence in the early days of the Cold War. The documents also show how ineffective the effort was, in the CIA's view. The records, declassified in 2005 and 2006 under an act of Congress in tandem with Nazi war crime-related files, fill in many of the blanks in the previously spotty documentation of the occupation authority's intelligence arm and its involvement with Japanese ultra-nationalists and war criminals, historians say.
In addition to Tsuji, who escaped Allied prosecution and was elected to parliament in the 1950s, conspicuous figures in US-funded operations included mob boss and war profiteer Yoshio Kodama and Takushiro Hattori, former private secretary to Hideki Tojo, the wartime prime minister hanged as a war criminal in 1948. The CIA also cast a harsh eye on its counterparts and institutional rivals at G-2, the occupation's intelligence arm, providing evidence for the first time that Japanese operatives often bilked gullible American patrons, passing on useless intelligence and using their US ties to boost smuggling operations and further their efforts to resurrect a militarist Japan. The assessments in the files are far from uniform. They show evidence that other US agencies, such as the Air Force, were also looking into using some of the same people as spies, and that the CIA itself had contacts with former Japanese war criminals. Some CIA reports gave passing grades to the G-2 contacts' intelligence potential. But on balance, the reports were negative, and historians say there is scant documentary evidence from occupation authorities to contradict the CIA assessment. The files, hundreds of pages of which were obtained last month by the AP, depict operations that were deeply flawed by agents' lack of expertise, rivalries and shifting alliances between competing groups, and Japanese operatives' overriding interest in right-wing activities and money rather than US security aims. ";Frequently they resorted to padding or outright fabrication of information for the purposes of prestige or profit,"; a 1951 CIA assessment said of the agents. ";The post-war era in Japan produced a phenomenal increase in the number of these worthless information brokers, intelligence informants and agents."; The contacts in Japan mirror similar efforts in post-war Germany by the Americans to glean intelligence on the Soviet Union from ex-Nazis. But historians say a major contrast is the ineffectiveness of the Japanese operations. The main aims were to spy on communists inside Japan, place agents in Soviet and North Korean territory, and use Japanese mercenaries to bolster Taiwanese defences against the triumphant communist forces in mainland China"

I can confirm the part about Kodama - from Japanese materials. He was also associated with Tsuji at least in the sense that the radium he used to buy his freedom was hidden at Tsuji's home!

The worst case I know about is Gen Ichii - the BW expert - who was caught being incomplete - three times - and still we honored the deal - and said the Russians were lieing when they tried BW criminals we knew were guilty (so we did not have to disclose technical evidence).

el cid again
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Back to the thread.

While the system exagerates the mobility in some examples, it also slows the mobility in others. There must be some part of the Map & War where it works just right. The ability to blitz Malaya & Burma, this would also be possible in India & Australia. The ability to march 60 miles, fight a battle and then move another 60 miles tomorrow is wrong, it happened in some cases but still took the Japanese 2 months to fight & occupy Malaya. I think the game moves at the right speed in the Islands, but as mentioned the lack of need to Prep for an Invasion can see an Island hopping blitz.

As mentioned, some of this could be controlled by House rules, but this will not stop LCU travelling on land masses too quickly.

What can be done within the game to slow this down??

Can you change the terrain, what about "lying to it" show the graphics of a road but rate it as a track, but that wouldnt allow for "administrative" movement within your own lines.  Increase the cost of movement in enemy controlled hexes, this would slow advances but can it be done.


Track (trail) movement is awful - far to slow - except this: it is instantaneous for resources and oil! Track movement also prevents ANY movement after 3 hexes - 30 x 3 = 90 - so you go over 100 at 4 hexes - and you get no supplies - and then you stop moving.

However, I do sometimes do this between road and rail. When I want stuff of all sorts to move slower - I use a road vice a rail code - as for a "high capacity ferry" - while I use trail for "low capacity ferry" - [Note this is just a practice - I didn't quite invent it. You have an "ultra high capacity ferry" at Hong Kong, even in stock, and Andrew put a high capacity ferry between Shikoku and Honshu.] [FYI the rail line between Kyushu and Honshu - absent in the mechanical WITP long ago - is correct - it is a rail tunnel].

What we can do is rough up country - messing up cross country movement when there are no roads etc at all.

And what Andrew did in China is "break" rail/road lines - on purpose - so if you run down a line you run out of supplies anyway. Makes getting to Chunking virtually impossible. [Or other points for either side] I think that is too severe - and just repaired all those broken links. BUT I LEFT IN the places that he downgraded primary rail lines to secondary - as these are at points that service was disrupted by operations. So you get some slowing from that.
el cid again
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
ORIGINAL: JeffK

Back to the thread.

While the system exagerates the mobility in some examples, it also slows the mobility in others. There must be some part of the Map & War where it works just right. The ability to blitz Malaya & Burma, this would also be possible in India & Australia. The ability to march 60 miles, fight a battle and then move another 60 miles tomorrow is wrong, it happened in some cases but still took the Japanese 2 months to fight & occupy Malaya. I think the game moves at the right speed in the Islands, but as mentioned the lack of need to Prep for an Invasion can see an Island hopping blitz.

As mentioned, some of this could be controlled by House rules, but this will not stop LCU travelling on land masses too quickly.

What can be done within the game to slow this down??

Can you change the terrain, what about "lying to it" show the graphics of a road but rate it as a track, but that wouldnt allow for "administrative" movement within your own lines. Increase the cost of movement in enemy controlled hexes, this would slow advances but can it be done.

One of the major problems in land movement has been the railroads. First, you should only be able to use them if you a) as defender you control at least one node in a section of track and have a clear line of supply back to that node, and connecting nodes, following the path of the RR, b) as attacker you must control both nodes of a section, and also subject to the same LOC requirements as the defender. Along with this is a need to be able to break/repair a rail line. Blowing a rail bridge across a river puts a real crimp on moving supplies forward for most WWII LCU's.

Also for movement, you can only move a certain amount of men/equipment/supplies per turn along the railroad, much like the system devise for TOAW. Thus you can entrain a division, if you have assets for it , and move it a goodly distance in one day. The rest of the units are left to trucks or walking, probably more of the latter.

Lets not confuse the word "railroad" with what is represented by the symbol on the map. It need not have any RR at all - and it often has both main highways and rail lines on the same path. So to require control of a node is not going to be correct in general.

That said, I like the idea of real railroads - and real railroad operating units and nodes. But it isn't part of this system - nor something I see how to add either.

I also think that the difference between walking and riding is absent here. But there is a technical problem of scale - if you move at all - you moved 60 miles! Code at least tries to allow you to move slower - as slow as 1 mile per day in jungle - and maybe we need more of that sort of thing?
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Andrew Brown
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by Andrew Brown »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
And what Andrew did in China is "break" rail/road lines - on purpose - so if you run down a line you run out of supplies anyway.

What do you mean by this?

Andrew
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
ORIGINAL: el cid again
And what Andrew did in China is "break" rail/road lines - on purpose - so if you run down a line you run out of supplies anyway.

What do you mean by this?

Andrew

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DuckofTindalos
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by DuckofTindalos »

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
ORIGINAL: el cid again
And what Andrew did in China is "break" rail/road lines - on purpose - so if you run down a line you run out of supplies anyway.

What do you mean by this?

Andrew

Think he means he's reading your mind; like he reads everybody else's... Except, of course, he always read them wrong...
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
ORIGINAL: el cid again
And what Andrew did in China is "break" rail/road lines - on purpose - so if you run down a line you run out of supplies anyway.

What do you mean by this?

Andrew


Or he is refering to the beloved Hanoi-Kunming Railroad...
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Andrew Brown
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by Andrew Brown »

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
ORIGINAL: el cid again
And what Andrew did in China is "break" rail/road lines - on purpose - so if you run down a line you run out of supplies anyway.

What do you mean by this?

Andrew


Or he is refering to the beloved Hanoi-Kunming Railroad...

Perhaps this is about the "pruning" I sometimes do in "cultivated" hexes to block railway shortcuts between hexes that do not have an actual rail connection. That is not breaking a rail line, however. It is preventing a railway from bridging two hexes that did not have such a connection in real life, or preventing "branch" lines connecting railway hexes to adjacent hexes that don't have railways. If this is not done then LCUs sometimes have an unfortunate tendency to "jump" off railway lines into adjacent hexes, after which it can take quite some time to get back again.

That sort of map data manipulation does make railways work more accurately for movement purposes, but it can affect the ability to move supplies from railway hexes to non-railway "cultivated" hexes, in the same way as my "warp movement" fix does for hexes without roads or trails that are adjacent to railway hexes. So it is a double-edged sword: It makes movement more logical and predictable, but affects supply tracing.

Where I draw railways in my map there should always be matching railway map data (or road data for "low capacity" lines).
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
ORIGINAL: el cid again
And what Andrew did in China is "break" rail/road lines - on purpose - so if you run down a line you run out of supplies anyway.

What do you mean by this?

Andrew

Think he means he's reading your mind; like he reads everybody else's... Except, of course, he always read them wrong...

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JeffroK
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by JeffroK »

AB
 
You must've missed the battle over the Yunnan Railway & the Kokoda Tollway while wintering in Sweden.
 
1)  With your knowledge of movement on the map, is there any way to increase the speed of "Rail movement in friedly hexes" and slow the movement in enemy hexes???
 
2) Do mechanized units move faster, or slower in different terrain?
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Andrew Brown
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RE: Slowing Allied ground idea

Post by Andrew Brown »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

AB

You must've missed the battle over the Yunnan Railway & the Kokoda Tollway while wintering in Sweden.

Actually, I didn't miss those interesting discussions. On my map there is indeed a gap in the Hanoi-Kunming railway. As for the Kokoda track, I represent it as as trail, but this does seem to be overly generous supply-wise. Removing the trail would reduce the already slow trail movement rates even more, though. Can't really win!
1) With your knowledge of movement on the map, is there any way to increase the speed of "Rail movement in friedly hexes" and slow the movement in enemy hexes???

Sadly, no. I wish this was possible. I view the current railway movement rates as a necessary compromise between the two.
2) Do mechanized units move faster, or slower in different terrain?

According to the movement table in the manual (p 148) they do, assuming it is correct.

Andrew
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