To Kill a Sub

[niceguy2005]

This is getting to be a real sore spot for me. Playing Allies in very late 42. I have about a 6 or 7 hex area I know to be rich in Japanese submarine targets. I spot at least 2 or 3 everyday. I have over 120 bombers, with experience in the high 70s on naval search and ASW at 2000 feet. I also have 3 Cat squadrons flying naval search at 5,000-7,000 feet....tons of supply large AF. After 5 turns I have gotten ZERO attacks, much less hits.

I bet in a month I don't get 3 attacks on subs in the entire theater, virtually never a hit and certainly never a kill.[:@]

What can I realistically do given the game mechanics to get a better outcome [&:]

Sincerely,
One Frustrated Sub Killer

[niceguy2005]

P.S. I have researched back through the old threads and haven't learned anything new...you get better results on Nav Search than ASW, you need very low altitude to attack anything, pilot skill must be high.

[HansenII]

Hi!

For me ASW by aircraft works out more satisfying if I set the alt to 1000 feet. It seems to work out even with Naval Search as a setting.

Another Issue is the set range and total available no. of aircraft. Try to reduce the spread of the search, i.e. for a B17 use 8 instead of max (?) 13. Thus, you'll have a more dense net of aircraft within 4 hexes of the base.

But even so, I sometimes have good results, sometimes nothing.

Anyway, sometimes even a detected sub helps to avoid damage.

Good hunting!

[Chad Harrison]

Dont know if I read this for this game, or for real life occurances, but are IJN subs harder to spot and attack in general than Allied subs? I am no expert on it, but it seemed that the IJN subs were able to stay under for much longer (better snorkel?).
 
Chad

[KDonovan]

if your oppenant is constantly moving his subs (never letting them stay in a hex more than one turn) then your gonna get off fewer attacks

[HansenII]

Hi!

As far as I remember snorkels for subs where introduced by the dutch navy. Those subs and/or plan where captured by the Germans when they invaded the Netherlands.
It might be that the data was transfered to Japan, but I think there was never a snorkel sub in the IJN.

Then you'll have to remember that the IJN subs where quite big, at least the I-classes. Some where even fitted with catapults, huge conning towers etc. So I think diving times where quite long, even with a well trained crew. The smaller sub (RO etc) where probably more nimble...

Neither the Conways nor the "Warships of the IJN 1869-1945" does reveal something on that matter, but I faintly remember somthing that the IJN subs where not top performers.

Regards

[Halsey]

Bottom line, your aircraft need 80+ experience to even have half a chance of scoring consistantly.

Just an observation.[;)]

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Bottom line, your aircraft need 80+ experience to even have half a chance of scoring consistantly.

Just an observation.[;)]

Halsey, thanks for the reply and I wouldn't disagree with you. Question is how does one get a bomber group to an experience of 80+ without the most gamey of training tactics. In particular if you are the allies and facing pilot rotation.

[Halsey]

I use veteran bomber groups.[;)]
Recon missions are the best and safest way to train, without being gamey.

Coronado's are the best seaplane for this, as they can train up fast doing regular recon missions.
Their standard loadouts are 500lb bombs.
So even on search they are deadly after they gain the experience.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: HansenII

For me ASW by aircraft works out more satisfying if I set the alt to 1000 feet. It seems to work out even with Naval Search as a setting.

Another Issue is the set range and total available no. of aircraft. Try to reduce the spread of the search, i.e. for a B17 use 8 instead of max (?) 13. Thus, you'll have a more dense net of aircraft within 4 hexes of the base.

I do limit the range of the bombers to one hex greater than the spotted sub. In this case I know there has to be a least 3 subs operating in the area and one is in the same hex as the port itself.

I never use B-17s for anti-sub missions. They are too valuable spotting subs and other ships at altitude.

I use mainly Cats, B-25s, B-26s and Hudsons.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

I use veteran bomber groups.[;)]
Recon missions are the best and safest way to train, without being gamey.

Coronado's are the best seaplane for this, as they can train up fast doing regular recon missions.
Their standard loadouts are 500lb bombs.
So even on search they are deadly after they gain the experience.

I would consider bomber pilots in the upper 70s exp range veterans. I have a B-25 group that has been bombing enemy ground forces for months and they haven't moved passed that upper 70s range.

The only air units to move into the 80 experience range for me are some patrols planes and one fighter unit.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: Halsey

I use veteran bomber groups.[;)]
Recon missions are the best and safest way to train, without being gamey.

Coronado's are the best seaplane for this, as they can train up fast doing regular recon missions.
Their standard loadouts are 500lb bombs.
So even on search they are deadly after they gain the experience.

I would consider bomber pilots in the upper 70s exp range veterans. I have a B-25 group that has been bombing enemy ground forces for months and they haven't moved passed that upper 70s range.

The only air units to move into the 80 experience range for me are some patrols planes and one fighter unit.

ASW Air missions flown by certain types, DB and LB seem to work best. More bombs aboard the planes (like Lily) seem to get more hits, but lighter bombs do not do as much damage. Sally/Helen are probably the best Japanese ASW plane (ITG). But I'll send 'em to the front at 70 .. then let them train up the rest of the way OJT. But getting spots on subs definitely helps supress them, i.e. they will be less likely to attack if spotted.
In my game with Moses there was a period where he was flooding a certain area with subs and I ringed it with Landbased DB and drove KB right through the middle of it with all DB on ASW ... I was getting 3-7 hits per turn on his subs .. I think 4 or 5 sank and a pile were damaged and he dispersed his mod. Well actually he shifted it to The triangle Truk-Admiralty-Rabaul. So then I put DB units on each, Truk-Admiralty and Rabaul and got a few hits and then I think he stopped using mob tactics and dispersed his subs all over. Now I can't mass airpower against him.

[Mike Solli]

The only time I had great success killing subs was after a CV battle where I sank Yorktown and Saratoga and had 1 CV heavily damaged and another moderately damaged.  It was SE of Kwajalein.  My opponent thought I sent the carriers to Kwajalein and flooded the area with subs.  (In actuality, I sent them to Jaluit.  They both survived, one with 97 flood damage. [X(] [:D])  At any rate, I was able to sink 12 Allied subs around Kwajalein with airpower and ships.  Haven't had luck like that since then.

[RUPD3658]

Raise your altitude. In out PBEM KDonovan slaughtered my subs (and barges) using B-24s at 6-10K feet. I think he said they were in the mid 70s for exp. I no longer even venture into waters within 14 hexes of a level 5 AF after the beating I took. [:(]

Check our AAR The Battle for New Jersey from 1-1-43 to 04-01-43 for the details.

[YankeeAirRat]

The only way that I have been successful in hunting subs is forming ASW killer surface groups and having the aircraft do the hunting. Then place a couple of my killer groups in the concetrations. If there is more then two subs in a hex, then I add more groups. By doing it that way I have been pretty successful in if not killing them at least putting a hurt on them. Of course the only disadvantage is that the sub could fire a torpedo at one of my groups, but that is a risk I am willing to take.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

The only way that I have been successful in hunting subs is forming ASW killer surface groups and having the aircraft do the hunting. Then place a couple of my killer groups in the concetrations. If there is more then two subs in a hex, then I add more groups. By doing it that way I have been pretty successful in if not killing them at least putting a hurt on them. Of course the only disadvantage is that the sub could fire a torpedo at one of my groups, but that is a risk I am willing to take.

This has been my tactic, but my opponent has been very good at moving his subs around...this is what I get for picking a disciplined opponent. [:D]

I surmize from your post that you aren't getting many kills either. Subs appear too survivable at this point in time. I got at least 3 direct DC hits, it might have been 4 on a sub, with lots of near misses and it just sailed away.

My frustration at the moment is that it just seems to me that 200 aircraft all searching within a 200 mile radius should be able to locate and once in a while hit a sub

[marky]

Check my AARs with Hartwig and Tanksone

i put up all available AC on ASW at 1000 feet or so, and have killer groups roaming, plus i also use the Long Island as a killer group

they key is to spot, and then attack, attack, attack

i sank or damaged alot of their boats[:D]
[:'(]

Also, try to use sumthing as bait

like send an ASW group with carriers or battleships, and even a PBEM opponent will run headlong into the trap, all u gotta do is sit back and watch

[marky]

and make sure u use modern destroyers or destroyers with ASW of 6 or 8

and just stay with em till theyre on the bottom

Avengers are good for this as well as Naval Search


plus SBDs

a GREAT bomber to use for ASW is Liberators and B17s, even if they dont kill em they still spot em out

plus using the Catalinas for sub hunting, theyve got high experience, put it to use![;)]

1000 feet is a good alt for ASW

[YankeeAirRat]

The most that I have had was a ASW group find an "I"" boat outside Pearl the day after starting the grand campaign. After a turn the combat report told me that in between this I boat and the USS Cassin. I was able to put 10 shells into the "I" boat. Not a single report on it being sunk. It is a little frustrating, I have to assume that sub has sunk. Sort of like real life situtations, during the war. I have had only limited success of some B-18's against subs off of Pearl or from various SBD's on a naval search. That has been something like every 1 of 1000 spots by my aircraft.

Oh, I have not used any of the mods out there, this is strickly stock game stats.

[marky]

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

The most that I have had was a ASW group find an "I"" boat outside Pearl the day after starting the grand campaign. After a turn the combat report told me that in between this I boat and the USS Cassin. I was able to put 10 shells into the "I" boat. Not a single report on it being sunk. It is a little frustrating, I have to assume that sub has sunk. Sort of like real life situtations, during the war. I have had only limited success of some B-18's against subs off of Pearl or from various SBD's on a naval search. That has been something like every 1 of 1000 spots by my aircraft.

Oh, I have not used any of the mods out there, this is strickly stock game stats.

same

though im usually pretty successful in my ASW efforts

key word is -

HUNT HUNT HUNT
[:D][:D]