Battlefront vs TOAW3

[jadam12]

Hi,
I'm quite new to Matrix Games and wargames at all. I've bought Conquest of the Aegean, GGWAWAWD and Close Combat: Cross of Iron so far and I like them very much. However I'm looking for a boardgame style (turn based, with hexes, etc) wargame and the most impressive ones I've found were TOAW3 and Battlefront. It is really important for me to buy a game that is really moddable and universal, and TOAW has lots of scenarios that covers the entire 20th century.

However I dont really know Battlefront. Which one would you recommend me to buy and why?

Thanks,
Jadam

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: jadam12

Hi,
I'm quite new to Matrix Games and wargames at all. I've bought Conquest of the Aegean, GGWAWAWD and Close Combat: Cross of Iron so far and I like them very much. However I'm looking for a boardgame style (turn based, with hexes, etc) wargame and the most impressive ones I've found were TOAW3 and Battlefront. It is really important for me to buy a game that is really moddable and universal, and TOAW has lots of scenarios that covers the entire 20th century.

However I dont really know Battlefront. Which one would you recommend me to buy and why?

Thanks,
Jadam

I recommend both games highly (and Battles in Italy as well!). You won't go wrong with the game you choose!

I enjoy playing the games in this order: 1) BF, 2) BII, 3 ) TOAW3.

For me the immersion factor (see related thread below in this forum) is much higher for BF & BII. I like the graphics and interface of BF much more than TOAW3. I also prefer the way campaigns play out in BF&BII over TOAW3.

All three (BF, BII, & TOAW3) are fully moddable [:D] TOAW3 has the most scenarios available since its been around since the 1990's... BF looks to have a budding group of modders who are already working some terrific looking scenarios.

TOAW3's greatest strength is its versatility (covers entire 20th Century)... which can, at times, also be its greatest weakness as a game (Jack-of-all-trades, Master-of-none thing a bit). BF on the other hand focuses on WWII and does it extremely well IMHO (... it also can handle scenarios going back to ancient history well to boot.)

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: JSS
I recommend both games highly (and Battles in Italy as well!). You won't go wrong with the game you choose!

I enjoy playing the games in this order: 1) BF, 2) BII, 3 ) TOAW3.

For me the immersion factor (see related thread below in this forum) is much higher for BF & BII. I like the graphics and interface of BF much more than TOAW3. I also prefer the way campaigns play out in BF&BII over TOAW3.

All three (BF, BII, & TOAW3) are fully moddable [:D] TOAW3 has the most scenarios available since its been around since the 1990's... BF looks to have a budding group of modders who are already working some terrific looking scenarios.

TOAW3's greatest strength is its versatility (covers entire 20th Century)... which can, at times, also be its greatest weakness as a game (Jack-of-all-trades, Master-of-none thing a bit). BF on the other hand focuses on WWII and does it extremely well IMHO (... it also can handle scenarios going back to ancient history well to boot.)

Very well written reply! I would also add Battles in Normandy to this list. I like BiN more than BiI but I haven't played either for quite some time. Battlefront and Europa Universalis-3 has had me going. [;)]

[jadam12]

ORIGINAL: JSS


TOAW3's greatest strength is its versatility (covers entire 20th Century)... which can, at times, also be its greatest weakness as a game (Jack-of-all-trades, Master-of-none thing a bit). BF on the other hand focuses on WWII and does it extremely well IMHO (... it also can handle scenarios going back to ancient history well to boot.)

Thanks for pointing this out! I'll rather buy BF for a more precise WW2 simulation than TOAW for its versatility. Maybe after that I will buy TOAW or one or more of the Decisive Battle series.
Jadam

[LarryP]

You may want to check this post out first:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1394674

[jadam12]

Another question: What are the possibilities of learning to play the game? I mean is there tutorial scenario, special tutorial manual or any such things?

Thanks

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: jadam12

Another question: What are the possibilities of learning to play the game? I mean is there tutorial scenario, special tutorial manual or any such things?

Thanks

Game didn't ship with one. I'm going to put up a tutorial starting this weekend. Think it will help new players a lot.

[hank]

my 2 cents

BF/BiI/BiN/KP has a more user friendly GUI than TOAW by a long shot.  The TOAW interface is not friendly (and I've voiced this opinion several times on other forums).  There's so much going on under the hood with toaw, you need good access to well formatted information but its a real struggle figuring out all the data the way its presented.

BF...et al, is better at immersion IMHO.  Better graphics and simply a more attractive game to look at.  TOAW is considered the father of computer hex based wargames (and it is I suppose) but when you look at the game today vs what it looked like back in the Windows 98 days, it looks basically the same.  There's been lots of changes made under the hood that makes the game play better today than it did 10 years ago.

If I was to rank immersion of the games I own it would be KP/BiN #1, Pz Campaigns #2, then TOAW.  (I don't have BF yet, but its only a matter of time)
For a user interface ranking, it would be the same. 

I hate to bash a game too badly but toaw is a rough game to get good at.  There's issues surrounding the "Rounds per turn" which is specific to toaw; early turn termination; how best to deal with supply; and some other features I'm personally not too fond of.  I'm still playing toaw so its manageable to learn but it will take some practice.

but, on the other side of the coin, toaw is very versatile game with tons of scenario's to play.

again my 2 cents

[TPM]

ORIGINAL: hank

I hate to bash a game too badly but toaw is a rough game to get good at. There's issues surrounding the "Rounds per turn" which is specific to toaw; early turn termination; how best to deal with supply; and some other features I'm personally not too fond of.

This was my main problem with TOAW...the rounds per turn thing. I've never had a good grasp on that as long as I've owned the game; it actually keeps me from playing it...I understand the concept, but it should be more intuitive. Otherwise, TOAW really is a great game...maybe not as good as the DB series, but it's good...and as mentioned there are a million scenarios at every scale and time period.

[goodwoodrw]

I have been a fan of SSG since the early 90s,and have purchased many of there games, but before u buy Battlefront, have a good hard look at it. There is most probably an excellent game in there somewhere, however the graphics annoy me so much I have given up on this game and wasted 65 bucks. If I could I would on sell this game.

[Valgua]

ORIGINAL: hank

my 2 cents

BF/BiI/BiN/KP has a more user friendly GUI than TOAW by a long shot.  The TOAW interface is not friendly (and I've voiced this opinion several times on other forums).  There's so much going on under the hood with toaw, you need good access to well formatted information but its a real struggle figuring out all the data the way its presented.

Sorry but I disagree strongly. You can play TOAW within two hours at a basic level and enjoy it. IF (and only IF) you have the required dedication you can dig in the unit information and deal with a lot of intresting details useful to plan an advanced strategy, but the fact is that you do not need them to have fun. Like the absolutely best games on the market TOAW is easy to play and difficult to master (like BoA). I like Battlefront very much (I'm having a blast in PBEM) but the interface is much less intuitive, the graphics of the units are worse and the details that make TOAW such a marvelous wargame are not presented in a better way, they simply do not exist! For example, in TOAW a hit by artillery can kill a squad, derstroy a suply wagon and damage a single tank and the player can access to all this info easily. There is a good reason for TOAW's huge success through many many years.

Filippo

[hank]

Wow!!  I suppose to each their own. 
 
If you must disagree strongly, that's your right.  But your inference that I'm not dedicated enough to learn all the details is unfounded. I know just about all there is to know about finding information in toaw.  Getting to some of the info is obvious; some info is buried a few dialogs deep; or is displayed in center justified serif fonts.    [8|]
 
I've played lots of different wargames.  I bought toaw twice.  And I stand by my opinions on toaw/toaw III.  Especially concerning the user interface.  With all I said in my post, I still play toaw pbem games and have one game ongoing.  I also continue to play PzCampaigns and BiN.  Both of these games have a more intuitive interface. 
 
again, my 2 cents ... aka opinion.  And you know what opinions are like? 
 
 
 

[Valgua]

ORIGINAL: hank

Wow!! I suppose to each their own.

If you must disagree strongly, that's your right. But your inference that I'm not dedicated enough to learn all the details is unfounded. I know just about all there is to know about finding information in toaw. Getting to some of the info is obvious; some info is buried a few dialogs deep; or is displayed in center justified serif fonts. [8|]

I've played lots of different wargames. I bought toaw twice. And I stand by my opinions on toaw/toaw III. Especially concerning the user interface. With all I said in my post, I still play toaw pbem games and have one game ongoing. I also continue to play PzCampaigns and BiN. Both of these games have a more intuitive interface.

again, my 2 cents ... aka opinion. And you know what opinions are like?

Sure. And you? The verb "disagree" does not mean that I don't recognize legitimacy to your point of view, but simply that it is unfounded according to MY *opinion*. The fact that you express an opinion does not imply that others can't disagree (strongly or not). That's the basis of democracy: discussion about different opinions. That said, I didn't infere that you aren't dedicated to TOAW or that you don't know where to find the info. I was simply stressing that TOAW can be played at different levels. I'm sure the info in TOAW could be organized better (nothing in this world is perfect) but, for the first, the game is enjoyable even without getting all the possible facts about a unit (do I really always need to know that a division of mine lost 2 squads and 3 jeeps in the last battle?) and, for the second, the difference between TOAW and BF is not the way the two games organize the info but the basic fact that TOAW has much more info than BF. Put in other words, TOAW is a much more detailed game than BF. That notwithstanding, when I first played TOAW (many years ago) I was able to get all the basic knowledge within one or two hours. The interface is very intuitive and the graphics are clear: it's easy to recognize an armoured unit and tell the attack and defense strength and the supply level. Of course, there is much more to learn and each unit is very complex under the hood. It took me much more time to get used to the BF mechanics. In any case I own both games and I play them every night so I'm not saying that BF isn't a good product.

Filippo

[JAMiAM]

Thanks for keeping it civil, guys. Given how small our market niche is, it is counterproductive to have overly heated debates (i.e., flamewars) over which is "better" as each game has its own "flavor". It would be like people arguing over whether apples or bananas taste better.

As mentioned, each system has its strengths and weaknesses, and they are seen as such, largely dependent upon the design intent or philosophy of the development teams, and the individual preferences of members of the target market.

Best of luck (and sales) to the SSG team!

Regards,
James A Mathews
TOAW III Project Manager

[Valgua]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Thanks for keeping it civil, guys. Given how small our market niche is, it is counterproductive to have overly heated debates (i.e., flamewars) over which is "better" as each game has its own "flavor". It would be like people arguing over whether apples or bananas taste better.

As mentioned, each system has its strengths and weaknesses, and they are seen as such, largely dependent upon the design intent or philosophy of the development teams, and the individual preferences of members of the target market.

Best of luck (and sales) to the SSG team!

Regards,
James A Mathews
TOAW III Project Manager

Debates about wargames can become intense but they rarely degenerate in pure flamewars (in my limited experience). I think it depends on the average age of the comunity members (more often than not older than 30) and the simple fact that many players own all the best games on the market (ok, they are not cheap, but many hobbies are much more expensive). In my case I play TOAW AND BF and I have lots of fun with both, so it would be stupid to start some kind of holly war.

Filippo

[freeboy]

Well, I think BF is a great game, and like TOAW3 allows for custom user made scens!.. that is why there are so many in TOAW#. It is a true Grog game on the hardest levels played PBEM> And that would be my ?, if you want a simply, easy to use fun non pbem go with SSG, they choose as a gaming philosophy to go ABSTRACT.. notthat it is bad, just very very diffferent. Taow needs a 21st century facelift, BUT it is the best non wego, ie turn bast one at a time pbem game I have found! I also Pbem BIN BII and soon BF, but TOAW#, for all its warts is amazing. want to worry about supply? will your drive deep into enemy territoy run accross a vicous sudden counter attack? want to play a modern scen with helis? lots of veriety and fun.. simply my best choice.

Pro to both: Great communities. Check out the SSG Forum R% TOAW3 great depth.. tracks sqauds and equipment.
Cons.. SSG some complain about the lack of higher resolution, although I never have and it looks great on my 19inch
Abstractions plus or minus and debated both ways. TOAW3. tough event editor, called the "evil Ed" for a reason. this is only for design issues and as a noob no one would expect u to roll out the new issues, but it can be fun to tweek existing games!

[jadam12]

Thank you guys for your feedback, it was very useful. I'll most likely buy both of the games as they both seem pretty good and I dont mind spending money on enjoyable games.