Russian Armor in PTO: FLASH TRAFFIC

[el cid again]

This is reasonable speculation. On the other hand, CHS had a Russian team - more than once I gather - and somehow CHS retained the T-34 / 76 - and in fact failed to put the BT-7 into the tank brigades. Indeed, it still had only 3 brigades in the East - which surely is too low. RHS is built on the foundation of the earlier version of CHS - before the second Russian revision was even done - and retained these features - which CHS itself inherited from stock. Aside from the basic principle that stock was done very quick and dirty - and almost every section of the data set was very poorly done from the point of view of purists (as we all seem to be) - the Russian section was always subject to the double whammy of being of "lesser importance" because the Russians were not really active until 1945 anyway. [I suppose if the Japanese attacked, they also cleaned up - because the Russians were so weak.]

RHS has systematically added Russian units and capabilities - but until it was completed as a whole we didn't know how many slots we had available - so we didn't give the Russians first priority on slots either. Even if they were active in RHS, they were not generally bellegerent early - and so the units were still regarded as somewhat less important than other Allied units. Nevertheless, in RHS the units have important functions in peacetime - they are the real reason Japan must have a garrison in the North - and they are also the real "penalty" if the Japanese invade. So we always were looking for ways to be more complete and mre accurate. [So much so that one player posted he was upset we kept adding "meaningless Russian units"] We will change units that are not right - and we will also get rid of equipment not used - freeing up valuable device slots - but I wish to verify these changes - rather than just speculate and run with it.
We need to find something that says.

At this point we also have the problem that RHS is "frozen." So we will collect data for use the next time we do a file set revision. I am sure we will find technical problems - and that revisions will be required - sooner than I would prefer!

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Monter says the BT-7 served until relieved by the T-34/85.

ORIGINAL: m10bob
(I suspect Monter is absolutely right.)

With one exception: IT WAS NOT ME!!!

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Monter says the BT-7 served until relieved by the T-34/85.

ORIGINAL: m10bob
(I suspect Monter is absolutely right.)

With one exception: IT WAS NOT ME!!!

[:D][:D][:D]

[el cid again]

It appears that we got a pretty good starting OB unit wise,
far better than I thought. There were not 15 brigades in FE in 1941
after the transfers West. What we got wrong is the armor declines
again in 1942 - by 200 - 400 tanks in May - and does not build up at all
as we have it. The build up is later - needing adjustment.

[el cid again]

I have found a technical problem with the devices re armor. I used a Soviet slot for the M-8 Scout Car -
eliminating one of three kinds of T-34s in stock/CHS - and this turns out to be a problem when Soviet units come in
in 1945.

More germane to most games, the Soviet tanks had awful data - in particular light tank armor - and guns were sometimes wrong. A 20mm Swedish AA gun was rated the same as the standard 45mm AT gun. And the KV-85 in stock and CHS and RHS is IDENTICAL to the JS-1 (or IS-1 in RHS) - just a rename. So I gave you a new version of the BT - the 2B - with a wonderful 152mm short gun - big enough to penetrate like a 76mm AA gun but also powerful vs infantry / soft targets.

We also have problems with armor counts in 1942. Tanks declined by 200 to 400 in May - to a total of only 1000 in Far East (or maybe 1200). We are using 3 battalion brigades - not 2 battalion brigades - but in 1942 they were only 2 battalions (maybe that is how they got tanks to ship West without moving brigades?). Anyway - more or less our reinforcement brigades need to shift to 1943 - probably. Under analysis.

[el cid again]

Because we had opened device slots, I was able to move the M-8 armored car. We then had two Soviet slots-
slots used when code formations arrive - so they needed to have Soviet vehicles in them. I arranged the series so that
things work - and because of the M-8 and the duplicated KV-85/ JS-1 matter - I was able to add 2 more Soviet tanks - one "medium/light" and one heavy.

I remembered some Soviet forts were not planned up - and on review I found they also needed mortars, mmg, AT guns, etc. So this will also fold in.


EDIT: Some forts also needed renaming - following Treespider's scholarship - iin particular 31 and 32nd Region - in a different area probably do rate a different series - and 111 replaces 115th and - a detected missing region was renamed to 112th following Treespider instead of my own guess of 109th.

[Bliztk]

I think maybe we have even *more* device slots free.

I`m halfway in my analisys but maybe we have 6-7 more device slots free

I will comment you later today, I have to check if anything upgrades to those free slots

[el cid again]

Correct. For about a week I have been freeing up slots of all sorts - and spotting potential other ones. It is bad practice to fill them all - something I only do when there are grossly insufficient numbers. I have not filled the present empty device slots - although regretfully these are not universal - device slots have very specific roles defined by hard code.
The two described above must be Soviet vehicles - probably: only a comprehensive device listing of 1945 Soviet reinforcement units would permit us to know otherwise.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Correct. For about a week I have been freeing up slots of all sorts - and spotting potential other ones. It is bad practice to fill them all - something I only do when there are grossly insufficient numbers. I have not filled the present empty device slots - although regretfully these are not universal - device slots have very specific roles defined by hard code.
The two described above must be Soviet vehicles - probably: only a comprehensive device listing of 1945 Soviet reinforcement units would permit us to know otherwise.

What happens when the TOE slots that are related to the Soviet 1945 reinforcement units are left empty? Did you ever test this? It seems not unlikely that the Soviet reinforcements do not appear in the game if they have no TOE. As far as I know, this happens with the VM Militia Divisions. But the Soviet reinforcements work a little bit different, code-wise. Thus I'm not sure about the Soviets. Only testing this would tell...

Just a thought.

[el cid again]

Added "Trans-Baikal Artillery Divison" following Treespider's recommendation - a combination of many artillery units.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Correct. For about a week I have been freeing up slots of all sorts - and spotting potential other ones. It is bad practice to fill them all - something I only do when there are grossly insufficient numbers. I have not filled the present empty device slots - although regretfully these are not universal - device slots have very specific roles defined by hard code.
The two described above must be Soviet vehicles - probably: only a comprehensive device listing of 1945 Soviet reinforcement units would permit us to know otherwise.

What happens when the TOE slots that are related to the Soviet 1945 reinforcement units are left empty? Did you ever test this? It seems not unlikely that the Soviet reinforcements do not appear in the game if they have no TOE. As far as I know, this happens with the VM Militia Divisions. But the Soviet reinforcements work a little bit different, code-wise. Thus I'm not sure about the Soviets. Only testing this would tell...

Just a thought.

The Soviet units appear anyway - overwriting what is in the slot. This is why Treespider's work is so important - he integrated the slots with the game OB and the real OB - a very tedious task. Tell me more about the VM militia. I cannot make them appear. What is the OB slot that normally would define them? [For Japanese militia we know: it is the Class C division. Hmmm- just had a brilliant idea! We could do something with that. Slow - very slowly - it dawns.]

[el cid again]

OK -

RHS has adopted several different Soviet tank brigade organizations - reflecting changes from late 1941 through midwar IRL. Since the initial brigades had three battalions - and the later brigades had three battalions - we have gone with three battalions as the normal size. For flavor - in between we have brigades which start with lower tank counts - but point at formations with the higher tank count - so they should grow if supplied and if production allows.

The six tank brigades in the divisions - which divisions disbanded but the brigades didn't - had a "heavy" battalion and 2 (or briefly only 1) light tank battalions. This "heavy" battalion may or may not have had 7 heavy tanks with its mainly medium tanks - and those "medium" tanks were pretty light - so one author calls them "light-medium" tanks! I decided to keep the heavy tanks because the numbers are tiny - total of 42 - and replacement rates are tiny - only 3 per month.
It is hard to believe the Soviets could not have scraped up that many if they had a problem in the East - and so I permit it. If the East is quiet it does not matter. If it is critical - it seems wise to permit the priority to change - assuming that they didn't use the normal tables - which indeed may have been the case. These brigades will retain this organization - but upgrade through 3 generations of light and medium tanks - and 5 generations of heavy tanks.

There are 3 tank brigades not associated with tank divisions at start. These have an even older "light medium" tank - and otherwise the same organization as above - but will go through 4 generations of medium tanks.

In 1942 tank brigades lost tanks in the form of losing a battalion - but there are a number of independent tank battalions which I attach to make up for that. Also, the tank count for brigades appearing in 1942/3 is lower - and takes time to build back up. After the critical battles of 1942 are over in the West, tank count recovers - and a new brigade appears - equipped in a way similar to the first six above - but with a newer generation of light tank. In 1943 three brigades appear - but the tank count is now up. Still the BT-7 is the main tank.

In 1944 three more brigades appear - not so much representing brigades as the full recovery of numbers in all the brigades - so units formerly surpressed to account for that can now appear. Some independent tank battalions probably get folded into these brigades - but it isn't wholly clear why they disappear from the OB? Anyway - these brigades are "pre upgraded" to T-34 / 76 standard - with the newest of the light tanks. If it isn't what happened - it is still hard to believe the USSR could not have fielded this equipment if there was a crisis in the East in 1944 - so we are not really overstating the possibilities. If there was a problem - it is likely even more units would have been sent - but then we run into the problem that we have changed forces in the ETO - and cannot figure out the impacts of that. So - as always - this is a compromise.

This solution at least permits us to see many organizations and equipment types in service - and possibly evaluate which might be better to standardize on?

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Correct. For about a week I have been freeing up slots of all sorts - and spotting potential other ones. It is bad practice to fill them all - something I only do when there are grossly insufficient numbers. I have not filled the present empty device slots - although regretfully these are not universal - device slots have very specific roles defined by hard code.
The two described above must be Soviet vehicles - probably: only a comprehensive device listing of 1945 Soviet reinforcement units would permit us to know otherwise.

What happens when the TOE slots that are related to the Soviet 1945 reinforcement units are left empty? Did you ever test this? It seems not unlikely that the Soviet reinforcements do not appear in the game if they have no TOE. As far as I know, this happens with the VM Militia Divisions. But the Soviet reinforcements work a little bit different, code-wise. Thus I'm not sure about the Soviets. Only testing this would tell...

Just a thought.

The Soviet units appear anyway - overwriting what is in the slot. This is why Treespider's work is so important - he integrated the slots with the game OB and the real OB - a very tedious task. Tell me more about the VM militia. I cannot make them appear. What is the OB slot that normally would define them? [For Japanese militia we know: it is the Class C division. Hmmm- just had a brilliant idea! We could do something with that. Slow - very slowly - it dawns.]

Soviet 1945 units do not appear if the TOE slot for the respective unit is empty. Just for example: if slot 2100 is empty, the 1945 Rifle Corps will not arrive - but a unit that is located in one of Treespiders slots will still "vanish". If you leave both the Soviet TOE slots and the slots from Treespiders' list empty, there will be no Soviet 1945 reinforcements in a scenario.

[Note: Thus it should be possible to place units in the Soviet "reinforcement" slots that are not in the game anymore in 1945 in every case - like Singapore or Hongkonk fortresses - have yet to test what happens then, but if the respective Soviet TOE slots are empty, probably nothing of any consequence - actually quite easy to test, but have no time to do this currently]

[el cid again]

Adding Trans-Baikal Cavalry Division

Added 10 divisions of Soviet PT boats (total 35 divisions = 105 boats). 135 were built for the Far East in the 1930s.
No replacements were sent. Various factors caused both attrition and the number actually serving in Dec 41 is unknown.

Found a mis-defined Soviet AA gun - and the 85mm was often used in place of the 76mm.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


Soviet 1945 units do not appear if the TOE slot for the respective unit is empty. Just for example: if slot 2100 is empty, the 1945 Rifle Corps will not arrive - but a unit that is located in one of Treespiders slots will still "vanish". If you leave both the Soviet TOE slots and the slots from Treespiders' list empty, there will be no Soviet 1945 reinforcements in a scenario.

[Note: Thus it should be possible to place units in the Soviet "reinforcement" slots that are not in the game anymore in 1945 in every case - like Singapore or Hongkonk fortresses - have yet to test what happens then, but if the respective Soviet TOE slots are empty, probably nothing of any consequence - actually quite easy to test, but have no time to do this currently]

Sehr interessieren! Most interesting - this means we can know the composition of 1945 units - by looking at the formation slots. AND we could be tricky: define the formation = to the unit we want anyway - then it "vanishes" in favor of itself. The problem with that is I bet it "hops" - changes location.

I don't like that "vanish" part - means we either do not use the slot - or accept the stock formation I think. BUT we CAN CHANGE the stock formation. I like that.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


Soviet 1945 units do not appear if the TOE slot for the respective unit is empty. Just for example: if slot 2100 is empty, the 1945 Rifle Corps will not arrive - but a unit that is located in one of Treespiders slots will still "vanish". If you leave both the Soviet TOE slots and the slots from Treespiders' list empty, there will be no Soviet 1945 reinforcements in a scenario.

[Note: Thus it should be possible to place units in the Soviet "reinforcement" slots that are not in the game anymore in 1945 in every case - like Singapore or Hongkonk fortresses - have yet to test what happens then, but if the respective Soviet TOE slots are empty, probably nothing of any consequence - actually quite easy to test, but have no time to do this currently]

Sehr interessieren! Most interesting - this means we can know the composition of 1945 units - by looking at the formation slots. AND we could be tricky: define the formation = to the unit we want anyway - then it "vanishes" in favor of itself. The problem with that is I bet it "hops" - changes location.

That is what I suggested define the unit to the slot that it upgrades to ...and you are correct it will change location.

For example Slot 2164 upgrades on 2-Jun to 2nd Rifle Corps located in Borzya so I defined slot 2164 as – 2nd Rifle Corps (which replaces 35th Rifle Division which currently occupies 2164) (then on 2-Jun 1945 it upgrades to 2nd Rifle Corps)– At start the "2nd Rifle Corps" is used to represent the 97 & 116 RD & an Airborne Battalion which are present in Dec 41, however they depart between dec 41 and Jul 42. The 2nd RC IRL has arrived by July 42 and consists of other divisions which I'll have to look up

I don't like that "vanish" part - means we either do not use the slot - or accept the stock formation I think. BUT we CAN CHANGE the stock formation. I like that.

[el cid again]

Thanks. I do not have time to fully incorporate all your work this round - but it is cleverly done. I have gone a slightly different path for now - my Tank Divisions are broken into parts - preserving the level of organization we had - but mainly so we can see the brigade designators (which don't change - while the divisions literally go away). Except it appears some of the brigades ALSO changed names! Ugy. To confuse the enemy? If so, it certainly confuses me! More likely some brigades withdrew to ETO - and others replaced them. Still hard to deal with in a system where a unit - once in the game - stays in the game - even after it "left"!

I am having big time problems with tank counts. One British author complains that the Russians did not even RECORD them! [They recorded the total of tanks and SP guns by period and plant - not breaking them apart.] Also - lots of totals make sense only if you sum all the vehicles in motorized/mechanized units - and then call them tanks! Yet another thing is that armored cars are counted as tanks. If you are not confused yet, some tanks are not very different from armored cars anyway! It was not just the Japanese building "tanks" with 13mm of armor in the 1930s. [Not well understood is that the "horrible" Chi Ha was in many ways a very fine tank when introduced - by the standards of its day - and it was technologically ahead in terms of diesel propulsion. What makes it awful is that you see it on the battlefield in 1945 even - way after it should not be there any more. In one action - the only major US - Japanese tank action ever - on Luzon - the Japanese were unable to shoot because the Shermans never let them get in range.] I do have some of the archives given over to the British - but it is not time efficient to try to pour through everything - likely to learn half the data we want is missing. But I do have a rough sense of the scale in the Far East - and instead of a "stable" force of 4000 tanks - it reached a low of about 1000 to 1200 in May 1942 - climbing from late 1942 until 1945 to that 4000 figure. Now 1942 organization was tank light (in terms of numbers) - but even so - many tables listing units in the Far East are either incorrect - or these units were greatly understrength. Since that is hard to simulate - and worse since the brigades later increase their machine counts - I went a different way - using fewer brigades of the larger type - and adding them over time until they are "all" there - all meaning before the 1945 puch. It is not wholly clear to me how many motorized regiments there were - but I have decided there must be three in 1941 - and I now have IDs for all three (2 of which Treespider put me on to).