Any thoughts? Strange behavior?

[Arjuna]

Chris,

Thanks for forwarding the passwords. Finally got time today to run through the fist of your saved network games. As you suggested I focused on the eastward attack by 3rd Pz Regt near Thermopilai. I watched as it formed up, kicked off the assault and assaulted for about 7 kms. By then I had seen enough to discern the following pointers.

First off, watch your command arrangements. You had grouped 141st Regt under command of 3rd Pz Regt - ie two HQ of the same level. This is NOT good and resulted in the 3rd Pz Regt being severely overloaded, effectively doubling the orders delay.

[Arjuna]

Second, expecting your foot sloggers to assault 14kms is a tad optimistic ( if not a little unkind. [;)] ).

[Arjuna]

As a result, the poor grunts were near exhausted about 5km into the assault. In most cases the troops will already have moved before the attack and hence won't be fresh. Tired non-motorised troops have their movement rates heavily reduced - almost to half in this case.

[Arjuna]

The final nail in the coffin came when your opponent let fly with a serries of violent arty fires that forced your second inf battalion to rout ( first its HQ and then its companies ). It will take them over an hour or more to recover from this.

[Arjuna]

When an HQ routs off, it usually dooms an attack to a severe delay at best and its often wise to call it off. The best way to minimise this risk is to profer aloternate targets. Hence the need for feints/diversions, preferably probing from a different axis. Also reduce the amount of time in the assault by reducing the range/length of the assault, especially for foot units.

Also be aware of the effect of terrain. For this attack you had a minor river running east-west for the length of the assault. This was only crossable for your motorised elements at the two crossings - one of which was heavily defended. This meant that the only available approach was south of the river along the axis of your assault. But this would mean a very long assault. So in this case, it would have been better to launch a series of Bn level attacks, one after the other, as indicated below.

[Arjuna]

Note that the order for the second attack should be give about the time the first attack is within a km of its objective. That way it will have time for the armour to swing to the south and form up while the enemy is preoccupied with the initial inf assault. I would also give the orders for the third attack at this time, knowing that being foot inf they are goin g to take longer to form up in  the woods to the south. this will hopefully screen their forming up from enemy observation and they should kick off just a little after the armoured assault gets underway. Thiw will provide mutual support for the dual drive across the plain.
 
Note the infantry assault are no more than four kms - the shorter the better.

[Arjuna]

Now I know this is not a complex attack but you have foot sloggers and motorised elements trying to cram into a very narrow but long corridor. A complex attack by an all motorised force over the 14kms might have worked OK. But the foot sloggers can't readily hack that. So you have to be flexible and alter your approach to suit the resources and the situation to hand.
 
FLEXIBILITY is the key.

[Arjuna]

I am running through this scenario again. I have launched two regimental attacks ( ie complex attacks ). One with the 3rd Pz Regt as shown below. It took them until the early morning hours to start their assault. but they are going great guns. Note I gave separate orders to the Pioneer Bn, which arrives later as a reinforcement. It's providing valuable direct fire-support for the attacking panzers.

[Arjuna]

The second complex attack I have launched is a non-motorised one by the 141st inf Regt. I did, however, combine this witha probe by the 55Krad Bn. However, I forgot that this was a motorised force and so they got stuck in too early and have now bunkered down due to too much enemy fire. But they have allowed by foot sloggers to form up without interference though. [:)]

[Arjuna]

So complex attacks are certainly do-able. However, if you want to do so with a force containing foot units then don't make it too long ( 4 km is OK ). And remember you can combine these with direct fire support groups and diversionary probes.

[barbarossa2]

;D Looks good. The 14 km attack was simply done in frustration after shorter attacks weren't apparently moving. I was just trying crazy things at that point. I am still wondering about "bunkering down." I will have to read my manual tonight.

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2
I will have to read my manual tonight.

Now Chris, will this be the first time? [;)]

[barbarossa2]

LOL...Dave,

Well, I read the manual for HTTR cover to cover and referred to it several times. For COTA I tried to scan it for changes.

Now. I do not really know if that answers all of my questions. But it does answer MANY. And in other respects it goes far beyond any request I made! So thanks. I am still wondering about the retrograde motion I saw occur a few times. But oh well for now.

I will reread parts of the rules again this week and then pick up a game with my buddy again and see what happens.

[Arjuna]

A retrograde action during a complex attack usually occurs if one of the sub-attacks or the entire complex attack is replanned or if the force bunkers down. Bunkering down can occur if the force deems it to be far too costly in casualties - ie it's passed its casualty threshold. I suspect this may have occured given the very long assault and the intensity of the Allied arty bombardment directed against your units. Another cause can be if the force is so exhausted that they need to rest. And another cause for replanning is if the original estimated time ( which is generally very generour ) is exceeded. This could have happened given the very long assault, the fatigue effects on the rate of advance and the stiff enemy fires.
 
So avoid long assaults with tired troops.

[GoodGuy]

Interesting....but this still doesn't explain why troops..hmm let's say with 15% fatigue would not move at all once let's say a "high/medium/low" attack had been issued.

Only "max" aggro would make them conduct the ordered attack (even attacks within a range of like 2 or 3 km would not be executed otherwise).
Dave, you may want to re-read my post on page 1 of this thread, in order to comment on this.

Maybe tired foot troops shouldn't be able to attack at all (because the "max" aggro trick would be like a cheat otherwise), to get a realistic level of consistency... I don't know...

The current state (with units denying to execute ANY attack for hrs) isn't satisfying, at least.

[Arjuna]

GoodGuy,
 
I'm just not seeing these examples you are talking about. Do you have a save from COTA ( not HTTR as I don't have the dev environment set up for that anymore ) and preferably from the latest Patch 2 version.
 
What is the range from the subject ( ie the senior unit you gave the order to ) to the objectiveLoc? I just checked the code and the only time it conducts a defend ( other than bunkering down ) is if the objective is already achieved or the subject is at the objectiveLoc.