"Gamey" Tactics

[decaro]

[quote]ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

The standard patrol was 3 boats.

Bye...

Michael Wood



Is that why so few PTs -- in a "TF" of 6 or more -- actually engage the enemy? Is that something coded into UV for PTs.

I know the recommended limit for a surface fleet is 15. Should 3 boats be the limit for a PT squadron?

[vonCommander]

[quote]ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Gamey or not, if it was good enough for John Wayne, it's good enough for me!

LOL!!! This was realy a good one!! Great [:)]

[DEB]

Any ideal if the 15 & 10 PT's used were just 1 TF or more than 1 on a joint mission?

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Gamey or not, if it was good enough for John Wayne, it's good enough for me!
In Otto Preminger's In Harm's Way, Wayne played the fictional Admiral Rock Tory; Tory had to fight a superior IJN TF -- including the Yamato -- that threatened to bombard his landing force.
"The Duke" was out-gunned, so he ordered the waters mined and -- after the IJN hit the mines -- sent in his PTs; both tactics sunk some ships. As one subordinate exclaimed, "That's cutting 'em down to size!"
By the way, when Wayne finally met the Jap fleet, he ordered his DDs to lay down smoke. Ok, it was only a movie, but it was (losely) based on the battle of Leyte Gulf. In any case, the naval tactics were sound.

Considering some of the films Hollywood has made, I am not sure I would place as much faith in the book/film accuracy here as you have.

My limited sources on the Leyte Gulf battles, tell me that the Japanese Strike Force that attacked the U.S. 7th Fleet ( which was covering the troop landing's) were initially engaged by the submarines Darter & Dace, which sank 2 CA's; and then by planes / TF 38 which sank the BB Musashi. This action took place in the Sibuyan Sea, and no mention is made of PT's (or mines). However, PT boats were involved in a subsequent action at Surigao Strait and claimed 1 CL. They had found the Japanese TF, but did not engage until after the main U.S. assault. This strait is approx 15-20 miles wide. Again no mention is made of mines.

Minefield's would seem unlikely in a Sea area or in a 15-20 mile wide Strait. Mining waters whilst attacking seems very odd - especially as 2 U.S. TF's were opperating in the same area!

If the opportunity arises to use the tactic that you use, then I guess it's ok - but sitting around awaiting such an incident seems a waste of PT's, which should be seeking to sink CA's & above without awaiting the aid of minefields ( or say, aircraft).

And though I was never in the Navy, I have a USN unit citation (ribbon). Anyone care to guess how I possibly got awarded that?

Pray, do tell!!

[decaro]

When I said "losely" based, I meant loosely based (I miss spell check). The semi-historical In Harm's Way combined battles, compressed time and took a lot of license in the process.

The point of it all was just this: Playing the Allies, I have fewer capital ships compared to the IJN, which has all the heavy artillery. Mines, PTs and the unsinkable carrier called the 'Canal are the only things I have to "cut 'em down to size" in the Solomons.

PTs don't have the range to go looking for trouble, and work better w/a nearby fuel supply in a mined harbor. I also use coastal artillery; it won't prevent the Tokyo Express, but it will give it a bloody nose if it stops too long in Lunga Harbor.

As for my Navy Unit Citation -- w/o ever being in the Navy -- it happened in the desert seas of Kuwait in '91, so pray, do (try to) guess.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


As for my Navy Unit Citation -- w/o ever being in the Navy -- it happened in the desert seas of Kuwait in '91, so pray, do (try to) guess.

Sounds like the Marines to me. They never want to publicly admit they are part of the Department of the Navy. [:D]

P.S. I was deployed onboard USS America in '91. [;)]

[decaro]

Close, but no cigar. yes, Marines belong to the Navy -- whether they admit to it or not -- but I was never a Marine. However, we we're "op con'd' to the 2nd Marine Division, so you're getting warmer.

Query: Was the USS America part of the anti-mine fleet or the would-be amphibious invasion of Kuwait?

[USSAmerica]

USS America, CV-66, was one of the 6 fleet carriers operating during Desert Storm.  In fact, we were the only carrier to conduct combat air missions from both the Red Sea and what we used to call the Persian Gulf.  [;)]  We were not part of the threatened amphibious invasion, as far as I know, nor were we officially part of the anti-mine fleet.  On the way over from Norfolk, because of all the news talk about the "huge" mine threat in the gulf, they did show us a film on the ship's construction and ability to withstand minefields.  It was mentioned at the time that if there were ever a "grave need" to clear a path through a minefield, we would just get up a head of steam and plow right through it![X(] 
 
I think your query about mines might have been a hint.  LOL  Were you maybe part of an Army combat engineers unit, clearing the mines and fortifications at the Kuwait border for the Marines to pour in?

[decaro]

I just made the obvious connection between you and your CV photo. Duh!

In fact, the Marines breached the berms and minefields for us, even though we had just installed anti-mine "plows" -- coutesy of the Israelis -- on our M1A2 Abrams. The plows looked something like the cow-catchers on old locomotives.

I was the official III Corps "combat correspondent" for 1st Bde, 2nd Armd Div, which was actually inactivating before it was deployed to the Gulf from Fort Hood w/1st Cav Div.

So how did I get a navy unit commendation? Hint: the Cav troopers didn't get one.

[bradfordkay]

"It was mentioned at the time that if there were ever a "grave need" to clear a path through a minefield, we would just get up a head of steam and plow right through it!"

What's that old saying? Any ship can be a minesweeper, once! Yours would have just have been the most expensive minesweeper ever... And, yes, I do realize that ship borne helicopters were very involved in minesweeping.

[marky]

i dont consider many things gamey or cheap

cept maybe blocking retreat paths with a Squad[:D]

its war lolz

[USSAmerica]

Hey Brad, the point of the video they were showing us was that plowing through the mine field would have resulted in a very expensive repair job, but we would remain afloat.  All the multiple layer hull construction was good defense against torpedos and great against mines.  The mines just were not a mortal threat to her.  Now old age...that's another sad story...[:(]

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

I was the official III Corps "combat correspondent" for 1st Bde, 2nd Armd Div, which was actually inactivating before it was deployed to the Gulf from Fort Hood w/1st Cav Div.

So how did I get a navy unit commendation? Hint: the Cav troopers didn't get one.

Time to use my google-fu on the 1st Bde, 2nd Armd Div [;)]

[decaro]

According to the book, "The Generals' War," one of the many reasons the Marines didn't invade Kuwait by sea (in '91) was that a mine nearly sank the flag ship of the anti-mine fleet!
The fleet was actually commanded by an Army general.

During Desert Storm, we had many high-tech weapons and counter-measures , but we neglected to take into account the simplest of all deterents to attack: the minefield.

Side note: although I had captured Buin, apparently an IJN sub began mining the harbor. The mines damaged several of my transports and sank an SC, despite having MSWs in my convoy/"TF" (technically, convoys, PT patrols, etc. are not TFs).

In UV, I wonder if the DMS is a more effective mine sweeper than the MSW. When I first patched-over w/2.5, my DMs were hitting their own mines! Glad that nonsense stopped after a fresh install.

[jmkas]

Can't complain too much about anything. Its war afterall, the only thing that is right is who is left! If you wish to withdraw units from the theatre to save them, thanks. The beautful thing about this game is that you don't have to play it how history would have told, do the 'what if's' - No US naval commander would have ever thought that bomb laden Japanese planes would intentionally crash into their ships until it happened the first time.

Exposing game mechanics or taking advantage of bugs is poor form however.

[decaro]

Speaking of bugs, it's odd that after so many patches, UV has never gone "gold."
I think WitP has, however.

Sometimes it helps to know something re game mechanics, i.e., avoiding too many ships in a fleet (needlessly wasteful as they all don't engage), too many subs in a hex (incurs a detection penalty), etc.

[bradfordkay]

" Speaking of bugs, it's odd that after so many patches, UV has never gone "gold." "

Excuse me? "Gone gold" means that it is ready to be released for commercial sales, not that it is in a non-buggy state. If you're applying the latter standard, I don't think that ANY computer game will have qualified - certainly not WITP (my favorite game of all).

[decaro]

Gone "gold" as a prerequisite for commercial release can't be correct; I distinctly recall that Strategy First's release of "Legion" was later followed-up by "Legion Gold," which had expanded campaigns and all the subsequent patches. To me that means that "gold" is the final version of the game w/all the (known) bugs out.

And I did recall reading about WitP recently going gold, but can't recall where I saw it.

Anyone else have another opinion on what it means when a game "goes gold"?

[USSAmerica]

Hi guys,
 
"Going gold" is definitely a software industry term for "officially ready for release."  It does not have anything to do with the quality of the code, the number of bugs, or adding gold to the title.  (Take this from someone working for the software group of a very large, blue company.  [;)])
 
I've seen many game titles that have shipped a followup release and added gold to the name, usually adding some expansion scenarios, etc, and usually also shipping an updated version of the title with some bug fixes included.  This is really only a marketing tool to get people to buy the "best" version of the game.  LOL

 
BTW, Joe, I have been quite busy and have not yet had time to hunt down details of the 1st Bde, 2nd Armd Div's "activities" during Desert Storm, but I intend to.  [8D]

[decaro]

Thanks for explaining "gold" as I am on the receiving end of this software. Did you notice the ads for "Legion Arena Gold" when you entered the Matrix home page? I won't be fooled by that trick again!

Re my Navy Unit Commendation w/o ever being in the Navy (or even on a ship during war time):
Actually all the clues are in the posts, all you have to do is put them together.

- 1st Bde, 2nd AD (not 2nd AD forward, which was a 2AD unit "trapped" in Germany for REFORGER manoeuvers that made it to Desert Storm, but never joined its division).
- Op Con'd/Operational Command to 2nd Marine Div = "borrowed" by the Marines, even though we were originally attached to 1st Cav. We had to re-attach to the Cav to get home to Fort Hood!
- 1st Cav didn't get the navy unit commendation.
- Marine Corps still has its checks signed by the secretary of the Navy

That should do it.