You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

[Canuck_jp]

Well I won't be paying 39.99 for it-or 49.99 for that matter.  I just picked up Battlefront for 49.99 and I picked up EU3 for 39.99 so it's not like I'm not willing to plunk down the cash either.

[Erik Rutins]

jpinard,

ORIGINAL: jpinard
Another issue I see:  http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=335  there's no mention of the enhanced AI.  That's a huge selling point for single player gamers, and I didn't see any mention until you click another link and read to the end.

Yes, it's there under the "More Info" link and also in the same detailed description on the store if you click one of the Buy Now links. The thing is, there are a lot of changes and new features, too many to really describe in the initial two paragraph blurb, so they were reserved for the multi-page detailed info. This is the case with pretty much all our games.

Based on your suggestion, though, I just added it into the "blurb" shorter list of features.

That poor overview makes it sound like a glorified mod with people trying to make a buck off pre-existing work or a mp lobby.  I'd seriously ask Matrixgames to change that and include a better quick overview.  I've been gaming for for 20 years, and if I can be turned off by it... I think a lot of others can be as well.  If Matrix is selling this instead of you... they need to do a better job and not rely on a person havign to work so hard (posting on the Matrix or CC forum) to find out there's more to this release.

I can't imagine anyone interested in this release wouldn't read the More Info page, or the Store page, or come to the forum and read the changes list. I don't really see that clicking "More Info" because the initial blurb doesn't answer all your questions is a major hurdle. With that said, part of the reason the AI changes were not front and center is that while the AI was improved, some issues remain and we did not want customers to feel misled, expecting some kind of night and day improvement - which most would if the #1 touted feature was a better AI.

Regards,

- Erik

[jpinard]

I can't imagine anyone interested in this release wouldn't read the More Info page.

You'd be surprised... and it's not always good to assume such a thing. A person can be interested yet be really short on time due to profession and family. Doens't mean they won't buy, it but have other things that vie for their time, so the Overview is all it gets...

I think it's great what you added though.

[Shaun Wallace]

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to say that Simtek is very happy with the way Matrix has pushed the release of CoI for us as a company. With online games sales I think it would be hard to find anyone more experienced than Matrix at what they do.

I think one of the things that makes Matrix different is given in Eriks reply above:

Based on your suggestion, though, I just added it into the "blurb" shorter list of features.

They listen, not to just the customers, but also the developers, testers etc. This was one of the main reasons Matrix is where it is and why we chose Matrix as our publisher! I am sure many of the developers here feel the same way or they would not be here

Cheers

Shaun

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace

This was one of the main reasons Matrix is where it is and why we chose Matrix as our publisher!

I'm very curious to know who the possible alternatives might have been? [;)]

[LitFuel]

An answer to my re-releases question would be nice??

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace
Speaking for the developers here. You have to remember that Atomic is dead (simply a brand name now) and that the ONLY thing that is going to happen for the CC seroes further development is going to be from us. We are not sadly independently wealthy (sadly) and need to fund the development of CC6. With the release instead of simply putting out CC3 with zero work, we did as much as we could and enhanced added as much as we could.

There is much that we want to do for CC6, as Simtek, without funds this will not happen.

So the idea is that customers or future customers of CC6 fund the development of the game/series by buying CC CoI? Fair enough, now that you put it that way. But I have problem with something else.

For that idea to work, CC CoI should have been designed as "teaser" for what future holds, but it's quite the opposite. CC: CoI is ride down the memory lane, and too much of a copy/paste "work" for my taste.

I have exactly zero arguments to believe you plan, will, or know what to do with CC6. I have seen absolutely *nothing* that would suggest you know, or are willing to improve the engine. Nothing.

If you say CC6 will be this and that I have only your word, nothing else. CC: CoI is not even a teaser for CC6, it's quite simply the 100% copy of the 8 year old game (+ mods blah blah) which does not work well as promise for the future (something, that you want funded with players money).

Oleg

[LitFuel]

Oleg,

You know darn well 100% is not correct, and you also know if you've read any of the posts on this topic or at the other CC sites that funding was not it's only purpose. It's brought new players in and drummed up renewed interest in the series. You have to start somewhere, and getting the old games out there again is something that needed to be done first to even give CC6 and beyond a chance. I think your asking your questions a little to early and I really don't get the point.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: LitFuel
You know darn well 100% is not correct, and you also know if you've read any of the posts on this topic or at the other CC sites that funding was not it's only purpose.

I think your asking your questions a little to early and I really don't get the point.

OK so it's not 100% it's 99%? Sorry, 97%? 95%? Come on, this game is a copy paste of 8 year old product with some mods added (mostly stuff that could be changed via editing of TXT files, and/or that was freely available on the net).

As I said if the funding of the future projects is the idea behind this, I have NO problem with that - generally speaking - but then I'd love to see something that would make those future plans a tad bit more believable than empty promises.

Compared to CC: CoI even TOAW3 - which I criticised openly on several occassions - seems to have made giant steps forward (a laughable comparison yes [:D])

[Shaun Wallace]

Hi Oleg,

I have exactly zero arguments to believe you plan, will, or know what to do with CC6. I have seen absolutely *nothing* that would suggest you know, or are willing to improve the engine. Nothing.

This is true of anything, however if you have been following the threads you will know that Simtek has done extensive work for the military based on the CC engine, this includes CC:RAF/CC:M5/CC:MAT and CC:JTAC. Much of this includes work that is way beyond any changes seen in any version to version before. Find any Marine, training using CCM or CCMAT and you do not have to take my word for it. (while working for the USMC we even got a commendation from the Commandant of the USMC, no small feat for a small company) Of course if you are this cynical about things to start with very little I say will change your mind.

If you say CC6 will be this and that I have only your word, nothing else. CC: CoI is not even a teaser for CC6, it's quite simply the 100% copy of the 8 year old game (+ mods blah blah) which does not work well as promise for the future (something, that you want funded with players money).

This was never supposed to be anything but a re-release, we added some chnages to the AI and other bits but this was stated very plainly by all involved and is not a teaser for anything. It was supposed to make using mods easier and maybe help the online community get started again outside of CC5. We did exactly what we set out to do and if you do not want to take our or rather my word for it thats fine. There are many that are eagerly awaiting CC6 and when we say we will deleiver CC6 thats exactly what we will deliver.

Many people never got the chance to play the original game and many who have played it and have enjoyed the mods, which are so flippantly blah blahed are still making those mods for that 8 year old game. Same as many other games out there. Maybe just maybe there is a reason the USMC are using the CC engine as a tactical trainer?

Sulla

[Shaun Wallace]

OK so it's not 100% it's 99%? Sorry, 97%? 95%? Come on, this game is a copy paste of 8 year old product with some mods added (mostly stuff that could be changed via editing of TXT files, and/or that was freely available on the net).

 
Hmm, an extensive knowledge of the CC engine and modding there  All those custom tools, graphics, sprite tools, total conversion mods, all done with data and editing txt files. Those modders are even more talented than I thought!
 
Sulla

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace
This is true of anything, however if you have been following the threads you will know that Simtek has done extensive work for the military based on the CC engine, this includes CC:RAF/CC:M5/CC:MAT and CC:JTAC. Much of this includes work that is way beyond any changes seen in any version to version before.

Selling stuff to military is all about knowing right people at the right places [:D] Besides, they have specific needs, that might well be served by 8 year old game + some mods (hey I don't know, nor do I care). We've seen none of that anyway, so...?

I don't see how this relates to anything said here or for the world of commercial games in general? I mean, more power to you, but if your USMC job was so good, you could have put more stuff into CoI, no? How about new, truely multi-level zoomable interface, not this prehistoric + and - pixelated stuff we have now? How about new sounds and voices? New animations? New theatre? New armies? New units? (I mean besides the ones modded in 6 years ago)? How about anything else that would make this game not look like it's been pulled from the cellar after 8 years and some dust blown off?

I'd be completely honest. Here's what I think will happen with CC6, based on experience:

a) It will *never* be finished and released (and some will put the blame on us, for not buying enough copies to fund the developemnt) or
b) It will be released mid-2008. priced 40-50$ and will be SO similar to CoI (or CC5 or CC2) most people will not be able to tell the difference, while you + couple usual suspects will shake their heads in disbelief at people failing to see "how much work" went into it.

That's what I think will happen, no need to publicly disagree with me (I know you do [:D])

Give us cynical sceptics something (like demo, screenshots...) to make us believe, and that would be the best argument you can make. [8D]

[Shaun Wallace]

Oleg, Oleg, Oleg ......................... oh boy ......................

Selling stuff to military is all about knowing right people at the right places Besides, they have specific needs, that might well be served by 8 year old game + some mods (hey I don't know, nor do I care). We've seen none of that anyway, so...?

Your knowledge of this is based on what? You honestly think that? You seem to know a lot, have you read the pieces by the various USMC schools on using CCM and cognitive training, memory based choices etc etc.... The range of the USMC is VBS2 (just released as Armed Assault) thru to Tacops, with CCM somehwere in bewteen.

I don't see how this relates to anything said here or for the world of commercial games in general? I mean, more power to you, but if your USMC job was so good, you could have put more stuff into CoI, no? How about new, truely multi-level zoomable interface, not this prehistoric + and - pixelated stuff we have now? How about new sounds and voices? New animations? New theatre? New armies? New units? (I mean besides the ones modded in 6 years ago)? How about anything else that would make this game not look like it's been pulled from the cellar after 8 years and some dust blown off?

You fail to answer any questions I see. If its such a useless game why is it still being played and modded? Why are new maps and mod still being created for such a has been game? We are not modding the game we have the source code and are doing major things with it. Maybe you should blow some of that dust off your specs... Did we or anyone else EVER say CoI was anything but a tweaked re-release? Can you read or do you simply want to argue? I can see now why you have 4000+ posts, [&o] [>:]

I'd be completely honest. Here's what I think will happen with CC6, based on experience:

So thats what you think will happen? On what is that thought based? What logic did you use and what knowledge of Simtek did you use to come to this amazingly insightful view? What experrince would that be?

a) It will *never* be finished and released (and some will put the blame on us, for not buying enough copies to fund the developemnt) or
b) It will be released mid-2008. priced 40-50$ and will be SO similar to CoI (or CC5 or CC2) most people will not be able to tell the difference, while you + couple usual suspects will shake their heads in disbelief at people failing to see "how much work" went into it.

Then you know very little about Simtek and very little about what has already been done. You make assertions and comments based on zero knowledge and wish to somehow denigrate anyone for enjoying what is a great game. Just because a game is old you assume its bad?

That's what I think will happen, no need to publicly disagree with me (I know you do ) I actually think very little thought went into thinking this post at all

Give us cynical sceptics something (like demo, screenshots...) to make us believe, and that would be the best argument you can make.

There will be screenshots and much info, although no demo. Whatever huge chnages there are and will be, I am sure you will still be looking through those same black tinted dust covered specs

Sulla

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace

I don't see how this relates to anything said here or for the world of commercial games in general? I mean, more power to you, but if your USMC job was so good, you could have put more stuff into CoI, no? How about new, truely multi-level zoomable interface, not this prehistoric + and - pixelated stuff we have now? How about new sounds and voices? New animations? New theatre? New armies? New units? (I mean besides the ones modded in 6 years ago)? How about anything else that would make this game not look like it's been pulled from the cellar after 8 years and some dust blown off?

You fail to answer any questions I see. If its such a useless game why is it still being played and modded? Why are new maps and mod still being created for such a has been game?

You quote a paragraph with dozens of my questions, without answering them, and then accuse *me* of failing to answer questions? LOL [:D]

Nevermind mate - I am OK if you can pwn me with the finished product, not empty flaming on the board [;)] but I still think it'll be a) or b).

BTW I never said CC is a "useless game" - far from it. It's just old and in need of *serious* updating. I am sad to see you people got hold of CC license, and then - did pretty much nothing about it, so far. OK, nothing for public at large, fans and gamers (as opposed to military customers who, if your word is to be believed, got the premium product, for which Joe Gamer couldn't care less anyway).

There is more "logic" and "experience" behind my posts here than you think, lets just say I don't feel like being too flame-y, so I'll leave it at that. [8D]

[LitFuel]

Obviously your bitter about something, and frankly I don't care, just don't buy CC then and move on to something you like better(you know, something new)...I will say this though, it's ignorant to judge something by it's age. I haven't read anything you wrote yet that is logical or shows any experience. I'm still trying to figure out why you even bothered posting, you obviously have no love for the CC series. [8|]

[Randall Grubb]

Hey, Oleg, it is obvious that you can read, but it is quite apparent that you can't understand what you read, or you could finally understand that CoI is a re-release, not a new game.

I've bookmarked this thread and your posts and I will make you publicly eat your words when CC6 is published.

Can you make a third side in the game to be neutral civilian?  I can.

Can you make a team appear to the enemy as neutral civilians until it decides to fire?  I can.

Can you have up to 10 players in the game?  I can.

Can you make multiple air strikes and artillery barrages available?  I can.

Can you mount and dismount a vehicle?  I can.

Can you have a team mount a boat, cross a deep river and dismount?  I can.

Can you edit a team in the Battle Group or Requisition screens to change the number of soldiers, their weapons, their armor, their moral?  I can.

Can you make battles that end when pre-defined triggers, such as X number of wounded, killing or wounding one particular soldier in one specific team, or gaining and holding one particular spot on the map for a specified time set for that specifc battle?  I can.

Can you make a battle that does not have Victory Locations, but winning or losing is determined by the triggers designed for that battle?  I can.

Can you add emplacements, obstacles and mines to a map as either fixed or player controlled, placed or detonated? I can.

There is a great lot about the Close Combat series re-releases that you appear to have a great knowledge of and yet a very little understanding of.  Your insights to CC6 are not just laughable, they are the statements of a fool.

[Marc von Martial]

Oleg probably had a bad week again down there in the Wild West of Europe [;)]. It happens once in a while.

Selling stuff to military is all about knowing right people at the right places Besides, they have specific needs, that might well be served by 8 year old game + some mods (hey I don't know, nor do I care). We've seen none of that anyway, so...?

Don't assume things run like in Coratia everywhere.

With your posts here you lost a lot of credit as a "reviewer" for me man. Since they clearly show you do not want to understand.

[Monkeys Brain]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Oleg probably had a bad week again down there in the Wild West of Europe [;)]. It happens once in a while.

Selling stuff to military is all about knowing right people at the right places Besides, they have specific needs, that might well be served by 8 year old game + some mods (hey I don't know, nor do I care). We've seen none of that anyway, so...?

Don't assume things run like in Coratia everywhere.

With your posts here you lost a lot of credit as a "reviewer" for me man. Since they clearly show you do not want to understand.

Don't worry Oleg here comes the cavarly
(didn't find smiley - man on a horse... hehe this one will do it)...

Hmmm, half seriously I am not bothered so much with ancient look of CC: HoI but I must say one thing about the price.

Battlefront.com, Matrix Games, Shrapnel Games and all other wargame publisher are obviously dishonest to their customers.
The public, gamers who buy the games from them don't know how many copies is sold on any game. As far as I can tell Matrix can sold 30000 copies of CoI but still weep like crocodile here on this very forum. Now don't get me wrong - I just say that I don't like this. I know that like on Paradox forum now will come 10 fans and say something to defend Matrix. Hey nobody is attacking Matrix, comprende? I said all wargaming companies, ALL, not just Matrix.

Why is such a big secret to hide number of sold copies for wargames? Matrix although not big as EA or Activision is also privately held company but ok not listed on NASDAQ or something.
As most games are sold online through website even magazines cannot come to possesion of number of sold games as NPD (?) agency is selling only data collected from retail (???). OK maybe I am wrong here but don't know.

Why I am asking this? Because I find this lousy and dishonest toward us, paying customers. We know how well is doing any EA title but we don't know how well wargames are doing.

There is one nice story about Russian tank experts going into frendly visit to Nazi Germany in 1940. They were friends then. And Germans showed them their heaviest tank Panzer IVD and Russians kept saying "Is that really your heaviest tank?"... Germans conluded that Russians have heavier tanks because they were so suspicious that PZIVD is heaviest German tank. And they did (T-34, KV-1, KV-2)...

So as Matrix, Battlefront etc... don't give us number of sold game then I conclude that they in fact sell bigger quantities than it is believed in wargaming circles. US Army is also making big orders I am sure.

I think that they shoud publish data on sold games...

Now what is ther reason for not publishing data on sold games? Well I guess one of the is to prepare you games with pterodactile or Kenosoik graphics and wrap it in 40 $ price. Along with weeping how nowadays is hard to sell wargames. Voila. Wargames are simpathetic and willing to help and will bite into this.
Or maybe there is some other reason, like CIA, or UFO Aliens are demanding this from them, or there would be watergate affair if they publish this, or... hehe?

Why we wargamers cannot know this info and average Joe Gamer can know how many NFS Carbon is sold copies? Now if fanboys could just for a moment take a red flag out of their nose and think logically. I am all for support of wargaming hobby but also would like that treatment of wargaming companies toward their customers is better. This is one of the things because I am not talking here about good customer service for christ sake. I am talking about honest approach toward customer.

Until we don't know data on sold games we can guess. So my guess is 30000 worldwide (yes, I will exaggerate a little bit). 30000 x 40 $ that is 1200000 $. Even better than many games done with hard development of 30 people dor 2 or three years.

Before someone tell me that I am nuts for giving 30000 as a number that is realistic number that can be reached with a good product and in this case good priciung policy (not 40 $, that is ridicolously big number of lost sales because many people will pass on this buy). - and Shrapnel sold Dominions 2 at 50000 so that number can be reached it's not so SF. I would like that wargamers get out of their sleep and don't be lamb for a slaughter just like that.



Mario

[Monkeys Brain]

One more thing... Just playing a game called Medieval 2: Total War.... with Turks (yikees Mongols attacked me uhmmm,...) and THAT IS A QUALITY GAME.
With a price of 40$.... And look at credits how many people worked on this game from Creative Assembly!

Now I know you will tell me that waregames are niche bla bla, don't sell so much bla bla.

Again I tell you that wargames sell I think good enough (I guess) because WORKLOAD is so small and teams are smaller so cost to produce a wargame is way TOO smaller than to produce a title called Medieval 2. According to this logic wargames to compete with todays trends should cut prices and try TO EXPAND a base of customers not like original poster said try to make 2000 people on this forum buy 20 games they release in a year. This will not work just like that.

And I think that I will pass on CoI. Medieval 2 gives you feeling that you paid for what you getting. And as I said when it comes to working hours during development I bet that Medieval 2 beat CoI in that regard. Many wargamers will think like that and instead of CoI would buy (insert a name of some popular game here).

[Shaun Wallace]

MB,

I play MT2 and enjoy it an awful lot, but to compare a BAFTA award winning million selling game, like MT2 a wargame is kind of a stretch. I know the guys at Creative Assembly, met them at several E3's and been invited down to their studio. They do not consider it a wargame.

Why do you think, companies like Sega and Activision back it? You are comparing this with World at War or Close Combat, TOAW?

Ask yourself why companies like UBI/MS/EA etc etc dropped SSI, Atomic, Talonsoft, etc etc and all their wargames titles? Was this because they were so stupendously popular and making such huge amounts of money for them? Do you think wargmes dev teams asked for more than any other dev team (OMG .... ask many of the dev teams here?) The reality is that wargames don't sell in huge quantaties, simple as that.

I used to go into my local EB/Game and there would be walls of PC games in their shiny boxes and a raft of wargames titles, try that now, you are lucky to see a single shelf of PC games and what is actually there is FPS, online based or some mega title.

Explain to me how wargames are to survive if not as they are? Do you want them to vanish altogether? Its the passion of the developers and publishers that keep them going and rolling out now, it sure aint the money!

Sulla