You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

[Monkeys Brain]

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace

MB,

I play MT2 and enjoy it an awful lot, but to compare a BAFTA award winning million selling game, like MT2 a wargame is kind of a stretch. I know the guys at Creative Assembly, met them at several E3's and been invited down to their studio. They do not consider it a wargame.

Why do you think, companies like Sega and Activision back it? You are comparing this with World at War or Close Combat, TOAW?

Ask yourself why companies like UBI/MS/EA etc etc dropped SSI, Atomic, Talonsoft, etc etc and all their wargames titles? Was this because they were so stupendously popular and making such huge amounts of money for them? Do you think wargmes dev teams asked for more than any other dev team (OMG .... ask many of the dev teams here?) The reality is that wargames don't sell in huge quantaties, simple as that.

I used to go into my local EB/Game and there would be walls of PC games in their shiny boxes and a raft of wargames titles, try that now, you are lucky to see a single shelf of PC games and what is actually there is FPS, online based or some mega title.

Explain to me how wargames are to survive if not as they are? Do you want them to vanish altogether? Its the passion of the developers and publishers that keep them going and rolling out now, it sure aint the money!

Sulla

Shaun,

I know also personally guys from Creative Assembly. I met them also at E3. I was game journalist for many years. I think James something was the name of this guy, he worked at Interplay UK before that. It was long time ago anyway to remember everything.

EDIT: Was it James Stapleton? Urgh... my memory is getting old...

You are too harsh. I for one certanly don't want wargames to vanish that is way too harsh. If anyone wants good to this hobby that is me. But I can ask questions and that is my right to ask question even if I see that somebody don't want to answer them (for any reasons that I am not aware of).

I know what you are talking. But I am not quite sure that you listen to the gamers, the fans and the customers. And you are man also one of them.

I didn't compared graphics of Medieval 2 (that game rocks, BTW, and one of the few strategy title that have QUALITY written all over, that is a proud of UK game development as you are from UK, small digression). I also didn't compared it of market share and I know why SEGA is backing it.

I compared the pocket money in the pocket of every wargamer. I told you that I WOULD RATHER take my hand in my pocket and buy Creative Assemblys Medieval 2 then Simtek's CoI.
It is that simple when you want to look into it at raw side.


Mario

[toastfrenzy]

After having played CCIII, IV & V for a few years, I choose not to buy this game for the following 2 reasons;

I posted a question in this forum about a is there a demo available? and received no response +ve or -ve what so ever.

Thread here

So after 2 weeks from posting I thought what the hell it's only £20, went on and selected CCIII:CoI ordered and as I went to confirm payent the total became £24.....The quoted £20 didn't include (vat\local tax), so I gave this up as a bad job. Not going to buy anything if VAT or TAX isn't included or a excluding VAT sign is given. Think the general way in the UK is VAT is included in the price unless it's clearly stated excluding VAT.


So will anybody reply to this, I wonder?

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

With your posts here you lost a lot of credit as a "reviewer" for me man. Since they clearly show you do not want to understand.

Yea I was prepared to risk my credit, I am just that awesome [:D]

We'll see.....

Monkey Brain, as usual, even if you happen to agree with me - I don't need your help, it usually ends up bad with me having to apologize in your name LOL [;)] [:D]

[Monkeys Brain]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

With your posts here you lost a lot of credit as a "reviewer" for me man. Since they clearly show you do not want to understand.

Yea I was prepared to risk my credit, I am just that awesome [:D]

We'll see.....

Monkey Brain, as usual, even if you happen to agree with me - I don't need your help, it usually ends up bad with me having to apologize in your name LOL [;)] [:D]

LOL

But this time my post was right on target, nothing rude or offensive I just asked a clear questions and stated my opinion and in the end they will see that I was right. Every wargamer have pocket money for buying games. If you too have bought 10 wargames your wife would object I am sure. So selling a game with pterodactile graphics in 2007. for 40$ is a no go. Todays world is not based on cheap sentiments.

But I guess that Mongols in MTW2 are waiting for me. I think that I will have to start a new game. You must prepare for Mongols right from the start. I beat Byzant and Egypt and now Mongols arrived and captured one of my fortress... Ah, if I had just put on fire that ramming device they would not enter so easily then... and my army was lousy in that town. Awesome game, it have some flaws like slow movement of AI but still awesome game. Creative have managed to make a mainstream game but still extremely enjoyable mainstream game and that's why they will earn loads of money. Oooops sorry this is not forum for Medieval 2: Total War.
Best money spent in long time...



Mario

[Monkeys Brain]

Yea I was prepared to risk my credit, I am just that awesome [:D]

Well, what you said is old thing. You forgot how world is moving fast now and that many appreciated what guys that developed CoI have done. Myself included.
Well, world today is fast and many people will answer the call of the company telling them that they will chew the hamburger for them so that they don't have to chew it themselves LOL LOL
Americans especially (nothing too wrong there) love to have automatic garage doors, automatic that or this. In that regard enhancements in CoI are OK.
Even graphics is not that big problem for a remake but you naively
doesn't see how that incorporates into price of 40$?

How this game will show in a box match with mamooth called MTW 2 is clearly evident, MTW 2 will wip the floor with CoI. I have talked with some people that were haveing the same problem with TOAW 3, they just didn't wanted to give 40$ and said to me that if publisher have put a smaller price they would buy it.

So clear message here is that market is unforgiving, if you want to publish a remake of older games go ahead I will applaude that move. I myself would love to see remake of Panzer General 2 maybe just in higher resolution and clearly to stay 2D. But putting a price tag of 40$ on game with such a how to say graphics from the Homer or Neron times is ridiculous. Illogical and ridiculous. And as we see this will only alienate some wargamers.

Imagine this so that I am not labeled as anti Matrix, quite contrary.

Have they droped the price to 30$ which is in fact a little bit over the top but still OK price I will gladly pay it. But not 40$. And it's not about money but about principles.
Have they adopted some reasoneble elastic price schemes they would get bigger revenues. Just look at this hyperproduction of games! How in the earth they expect that every game will make it? Matrix games as well compete against each other on top of that. And customers love companies that show some considerations. That way if remake was 30$ then customer is also more willing to part with 50$ for a new game like COTA for example. That way you are driving the sales of new titles as well and don't get labeled as expensive in "word of mouth" advertising.



Mario

[Monkeys Brain]

ORIGINAL: toastfrenzy

After having played CCIII, IV & V for a few years, I choose not to buy this game for the following 2 reasons;

I posted a question in this forum about a is there a demo available? and received no response +ve or -ve what so ever.

Thread here

So after 2 weeks from posting I thought what the hell it's only £20, went on and selected CCIII:CoI ordered and as I went to confirm payent the total became £24.....The quoted £20 didn't include (vat\local tax), so I gave this up as a bad job. Not going to buy anything if VAT or TAX isn't included or a excluding VAT sign is given. Think the general way in the UK is VAT is included in the price unless it's clearly stated excluding VAT.


So will anybody reply to this, I wonder?

Marc will answer to you about VAT(as I don't know their practice) but I understand your decision,


Mario

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: toastfrenzy
.....The quoted £20 didn't include (vat\local tax), so I gave this up as a bad job. Not going to buy anything if VAT or TAX isn't included or a excluding VAT sign is given. Think the general way in the UK is VAT is included in the price unless it's clearly stated excluding VAT.

VAT is not included cause Matrix Games is an US business. Legally you buy from the US, even though the actual product is shipped to your from a UK warehouse (if you order form the EU shop). Even if we wanted we can not give a price with VAT included since VAT is different in many European states and on top of that , this is simply how Digital River handles this stuff.

When you enter the shop there is a pop up window that will clearly inform you that VAT is excluded.

From shop:

Important Notice!
Please note that all prices listed in the United Kingdom and Euro stores DO NOT include any VAT charges that may apply. At the time of purchase, the exact VAT will be applied based on the customer's ship-to country.
-Matrix Games

[Monkeys Brain]

We in bandit kingdom of Croatia doesn't pay anything when we import games ,,,,, until woman with a beard in a custom post office catch your shipment and then you pay 22 % PDV (that is CreoNeanderthal VAT), and then on top of that you pay some expense and that all can go to be around 30% of actual value of the game. Dang criminals!

And cherry on the top they say to you that custom is excluded from software (which is games) so custom charge is 0% but that doesn't give me any concilation as they skin me alive with this PDV etc...

edit:
And PDV (VAT) is calculated including postage plus value of the game. So they calculate 22% from 60 $ for example, not just 50.
Dang communist and nationalist scum of the earth. Fortunately I was long time not on a custom, I had a bit of luck, but would like to go with a flamethrower there one day.

[toastfrenzy]

Thx for the speedy replies, I’ll endeavour to read all the presented information next time.
I'm focusing on B'front's ToW now as an April release has been mentioned, but will be sure to check out CC6....

Any comment on my first point for not buying CCIII:CoI?

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: toastfrenzy

Any comment on my first point for not buying CCIII:CoI?

As to the demo, no. Matrix usually aren't big on demos anyway, but I suspect in the case CC: CoI the the time, money and effort to do one just wouldn't be justified in terms of sales. Unlike a 'new' release the great majority of the potential market knows exactly what they are getting, anyway; even if they have never played CC (and most probably have) the game has semi-legendary status.

I agree on the VAT point, actually, and have bitched about it before, although I've got used to it. There just is nothing Matrix can do on that, although Digital River certainly could as most other online retailers seem to have no trouble in including a VAT inclusive price when that price is given in UKP. You can't do it up front with Euro sales as the rate is variable between countries and the tax can't be calculated until you've given address details.

[Monkeys Brain]

ORIGINAL: toastfrenzy

Thx for the speedy replies, I’ll endeavour to read all the presented information next time.
I'm focusing on B'front's ToW now as an April release has been mentioned, but will be sure to check out CC6....

Any comment on my first point for not buying CCIII:CoI?

Maybe they don't want to do demo or don't have resources, or time?

As I understand it is basically same old CCIII with some minor enhancements, better dealings with mods and better supported multiplayer...Thas is ok, for a 29.95$ [:'(]

I will also be getting ToW... first day in the dawn lol

As I am here may I suggest to you and to our American friends

http://rignroll.com/index.php?type=new_id&publ_id=462

Rig'n'Roll. Release spring 2007. It's a truck driving simulation and all California is there in the game using special Virtual Reality technique. The game will be AWESOME!
There is a movie 20 MB on this link, see it for yourself.

Maybe even your house in San Francisco is there lol

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

I will also be getting ToW... first day in the dawn lol

I'll wait for some reviews, or even a demo, but I must admit this (from an enthusiatic preview quoted at BF) was a tad off-putting;

ToW really is a case of a solid generic RTS game built around many small and very well balanced tweaks and features that seamlessly work together

Whatever else you may say about CC, one thing it isn't is a "generic RTS game"! I don't share Ravinhood's total aversion to such things but it will need quite some "well balanced tweaks and features" to breath life into what is a desperately tired and unoriginal genre. I'm also a little nervous about the publisher. Nothing against BF at all as a wargames publisher and will happily buy Les Grognards and CMC (if they ever finish it), and would have bought CM:SF if it wasn't for the awful US beats up on Syria scenario. But 'generic WW2 RTS' IS a mass marketable product of interest to the big boys if its any good; look at Company of Heroes. So how did it end up at BF?

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Hertston
ToW really is a case of a solid generic RTS game built around many small and very well balanced tweaks and features that seamlessly work together

I am highly suspicious about any game that takes aeons to find a publisher outside it's home country (and is pretty much in development for aeons itself), like TOW.

Also, as GIC/EYSA showed, ambitious 3D pseudo-realtime designs still have a long way to go.

Having said that I do expect TOW to be miles above generic WW2-flavored garbage like CoH, although in itself it does not say much [:D]

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace

..........USMC schools on using CCM and cognitive training, memory based choices etc etc.... The range of the USMC is VBS2 (just released as Armed Assault) thru to Tacops, with CCM somehwere in bewteen.

Erm... just for the record: Bohemia Interactive (the company that developed Armed Assault) considers ArmAssault to be what they call a 1.5-Version of Operation Flashpoint, which means that it's basically the old OFP-engine, with the same old faulty AI, just with improved/recent graphics (textures with higher resolution, a bit more detailed buildings...doh) and a new theater, plus new vehicles/objects. That's why the game got mediocre reviews in most game mags (I think around 70-75%, way less in some mags).

Besides Bohemia argueing with Codemasters about the rights regarding the brand/name OFP (that's one reason for Bohemia not naming it Operation Flashpoint 2), Bohemia figured that they were too busy with working on the VBS2 (military version of the simulation) to dedicate more time for the development of a real OFP 2.0, so they "just" overhauled the OFP-engine, in order to keep the die-hard fans of the game interested and to avoid that OFP will be forgotten.
Afaik, the first version of the military version (VBS) required massive computing power, and was not like a sim you could run on a small workstation, since it featured lots of updates and adjustable environments, where u could recreate combat situations including civilians, riots, raids, a huge range of vehicles, etc.
So, you shouldn't confuse VBS2 with Armed Assault from the same company. The basic concepts of VBS2 might go back to OFP 1.0, but VBS2 evolved into a fully fledged military sim, with lotsa goodies, these days.

Back to topic: I used to be a big fan of the CC series. I even kept playing it although the command interface was cumbersome: it wasn't a contemporary interface anymore at the time the game had been released, when compared to interfaces of RTS that were on the market since 1995. Given, the series featured a realism (in real time) that was unmatched back then, which surely displayed a detail that kept players hooked, I guess, including me. I used to play the unmodded games only, though.

I see where Oleg's coming from, though, and I have to admit that I share some concerns there, although I wouldn't express them that harsh. I believe you if you say that there'll be a new game, and I hope you've got the ressources to make it happen....

Question is, though, will it be like a "1.5" game, or like a "2.0" one (all new engine, brandnew AI, new theater, etc.)?
Imho, CoI is like 1.3 or 1.4-ish.
If there'd be something like 2.0, I'd buy it, definetly.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Having said that I do expect TOW to be miles above generic WW2-flavored garbage like CoH, ....

Technically, CoH is a milestone, regarding technical innovation and presentation. Also, the devs don't claim that the game features uber-realism or anything, afaik. It's a game designed to attract the masses.

[KG Erwin]

It's commendable that the mods continue to respond, but I've played the game (using the Real Infantry Mod), and I think it's worth the money.

Maybe some of the whiners would be better served by actually playing the game, rather than taking up valuable time from the moderators, who could be working on the next game. (Ahem)

[Shaun Wallace]

Hia GG,

Erm... just for the record: Bohemia Interactive (the company that developed Armed Assault) considers ArmAssault to be what they call a 1.5-Version of Operation Flashpoint, which means that it's basically the old OFP-engine, with the same old faulty AI, just with improved/recent graphics (textures with higher resolution, a bit more detailed buildings...doh) and a new theater, plus new vehicles/objects. That's why the game got mediocre reviews in most game mags (I think around 70-75%, way less in some mags).

I know BIA well and flew to London last year to meet up with Pete from BIA. Simtek is involved in VBS2, so I know where you are coming from on the engine. While its not a brand new engine, its an engine thats been developed and tweaked for 16 years now and both BIA in Aus (doing the mil version) and the Czech guys working on V2 of the engine are building great products. OPF and VBS are both similiar to CC in that they do not fit into any standard game slot, RTS/FPS etc.

Besides Bohemia argueing with Codemasters about the rights regarding the brand/name OFP (that's one reason for Bohemia not naming it Operation Flashpoint 2), Bohemia figured that they were too busy with working on the VBS2 (military version of the simulation) to dedicate more time for the development of a real OFP 2.0, so they "just" overhauled the OFP-engine, in order to keep the die-hard fans of the game interested and to avoid that OFP will be forgotten.
Afaik, the first version of the military version (VBS) required massive computing power, and was not like a sim you could run on a small workstation, since it featured lots of updates and adjustable environments, where u could recreate combat situations including civilians, riots, raids, a huge range of vehicles, etc.
So, you shouldn't confuse VBS2 with Armed Assault from the same company. The basic concepts of VBS2 might go back to OFP 1.0, but VBS2 evolved into a fully fledged military sim, with lotsa goodies, these days.

BIS was very quick to see the potential that was out there ny making use of the modding community, this enabled really the first milittary use of the sim. VBS2 is a major jump from VBS1 in many areas. It is def the big brother of ArmA.

Back to topic: I used to be a big fan of the CC series. I even kept playing it although the command interface was cumbersome: it wasn't a contemporary interface anymore at the time the game had been released, when compared to interfaces of RTS that were on the market since 1995. Given, the series featured a realism (in real time) that was unmatched back then, which surely displayed a detail that kept players hooked, I guess, including me. I used to play the unmodded games only, though.

CC with the many hundreds of mods is still played after what 7 or 8 years? That says an awful lot about the state of current RTS games. I used to run Wargamer and have seen ALOT of RTS games. CC is not an RTS and never was. What we aim to do is move what is good already in the game and take it forward. A huge amount of this is already done, Snr Drill listed many new features, there will be more.

I see where Oleg's coming from, though, and I have to admit that I share some concerns there, although I wouldn't express them that harsh. I believe you if you say that there'll be a new game, and I hope you've got the ressources to make it happen....

Question is, though, will it be like an "OFP 1.5" game, or like an "OFP 2.0" (all new engine, brandnew AI, new theater, etc.)? Imho, CoI is like 1.3 or 1.5-ish. If there'd be something like 2.0, I'd buy it, definetly.

CoI is a re-release, yes its got additions and yes the code has been changed in places, but it was never intended to be anything but a re-release. CC6 will NOT be a re-release but a new product with many new features. I think that many here will be VERY shocked at how CC6 and what we have done with CC

Sulla

[Shaun Wallace]

It's commendable that the mods continue to respond, but I've played the game (using the Real Infantry Mod), and I think it's worth the money.

Maybe some of the whiners would be better served by actually playing the game, rather than taking up valuable time from the moderators, who could be working on the next game. (Ahem)

LOL, We will try and be less diligent in the future

Sulla

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace
CoI is a re-release, yes its got additions and yes the code has been changed in places, but it was never intended to be anything but a re-release. CC6 will NOT be a re-release but a new product with many new features. I think that many here will be VERY shocked at how CC6 and what we have done with CC

Any dates, even just rough estimates? I want to check "prepare 2 B shocked" on my calendar [:D]

No really, does CC6 have any date attached to it?

[GoodGuy]

I didn't consider CC to be a RTS. I compared the ease (or the lack) of use of the interface of CC to interfaces of RTS-games that flooded the market since 1995.

Armed Assault isn't even a little brother. Also, it's a sore attempt to keep the shrinking die-hard community (really small these days, mostly czech/hungarian players and a few Germans) at it, plus, it features an engine that is really really old, and not even close to being as powerful as VBS(2).

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace

I think that many here will be VERY shocked at how CC6 and what we have done with CC

Sulla

I can hold my horses....means I can be patient.... but just curious...when can we expect to be shocked (and maybe see a few screens, previews, diaries, whatever)? [:D]

[old man of the sea]

well, I'll see if I can shine some light on the sales subject here. I have worked with atomic games/three sixty pacific/avalon hill/microsoft/ssi/matel/talonsoft/take two interactive/strategy first/matrix games/dynamic animation systems/merscom/rebel games/got game 
 
Man that's a lot of ground to cover.
 
Sales for most retail wargames are between 20,000 and 30,000 copies. Sales for Sid Meyers Antietem which was initially online only was 8,000. GI Combat sold around 30,000 copies. Close Combat in all its glory outdid any wargame ever. It is a good thing that they are being re-released. There are not only old hands getting updated material, (yes I see that a lot has changed from CCIII just in the screen shots of one AAR) but new people are in the mix. So, you have the teaser, and the updated re-release in the same package.
 
Atomic did not market Close Combat to the USMC. They came to Atomic.
 
What I do now is marketing to the US Army/Marine Corps/ USAF/US NAVY/law enforcement/corrections at federal/state/local/municipal level. It is not who you know, it is what you have. Knowing who the right people are helps, but having what they need is much more important. It is much harder than making games. Much much harder.
 
Check it out http://vice.d-a-s.com
 
E