Europe map?

[trees]

well done on the Desert Mountain hexes!

here are a few questions kind Sirs:


Is there a river on the hexside to the South-East of Stockholm?



Isn't the 'Monte Cassino' hex a mountain hex on the paper maps? I can't recall but it seems a little incongruous to see that on a clear hex. Ditto 'Bohemian Forest' on two mountain hexes...



Was 'Tel Aviv' a city name during 1939-1945? I thought it was founded in 1948?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: trees
well done on the Desert Mountain hexes!

here are a few questions kind Sirs:

Is there a river on the hexside to the South-East of Stockholm?

Isn't the 'Monte Cassino' hex a mountain hex on the paper maps? I can't recall but it seems a little incongruous to see that on a clear hex. Ditto 'Bohemian Forest' on two mountain hexes...

Was 'Tel Aviv' a city name during 1939-1945? I thought it was founded in 1948?

We changed the area around Stockholm from the WIF FE paper map. There are a few minor changes from the WIF FE map in Sweden and Norway to make the map closer to reality. In particular, the area south of Stockholm is actually a lake and canal instead of a estuary of the Baltic, as depicted in WIF FE. The canal is not traversable by ships for the purpose of invasions from the Baltic.

Patrice added Tel Aviv so the map would be correct for the other WIF add-ons that start post WW II.

[trees]

the change for Stockholm is fine, it is just hard to tell if an attack on Stockholm from that hex would be halved or not, perhaps the line needs to be thicker or made the same as a river line, just perfectly straight.

post WWII Patton in Flames stuff someday will require lots of new lines on the maps, why not just add Tel Aviv then? WiF is played by people seriously into their history/geography.

[christo]

I am also slightly concerned that it will make any attack on that hex an automatic assault as opposed to the possibility of a blitz on Tel Aviv. Given that it is unlikely that there is a great deal of armour normally in that neck of the woods this will probably have a minimal effect but...

Christo

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: trees
well done on the Desert Mountain hexes!

here are a few questions kind Sirs:

Is there a river on the hexside to the South-East of Stockholm?

Isn't the 'Monte Cassino' hex a mountain hex on the paper maps? I can't recall but it seems a little incongruous to see that on a clear hex. Ditto 'Bohemian Forest' on two mountain hexes...

Was 'Tel Aviv' a city name during 1939-1945? I thought it was founded in 1948?

We changed the area around Stockholm from the WIF FE paper map. There are a few minor changes from the WIF FE map in Sweden and Norway to make the map closer to reality. In particular, the area south of Stockholm is actually a lake and canal instead of a estuary of the Baltic, as depicted in WIF FE. The canal is not traversable by ships for the purpose of invasions from the Baltic.

Patrice added Tel Aviv so the map would be correct for the other WIF add-ons that start post WW II.

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

We're not re-fighting WW2 but rather a new war every time.

Yes, but it gives some landmarks in places where there are nothing else, doesn't it ?

But that's my point. They are mostly only landmarks because of WW2. El Alemein, for example, was just a dusty railway junction. I don't really care but if we wanted to fill in the map with more detail we could use major towns that are potential battle sites (which would include some of the historical ones).

Cheers, Neilster

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: christo
I am also slightly concerned that it will make any attack on that hex an automatic assault as opposed to the possibility of a blitz on Tel Aviv. Given that it is unlikely that there is a great deal of armour normally in that neck of the woods this will probably have a minimal effect but...
Christo

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: trees
Was 'Tel Aviv' a city name during 1939-1945? I thought it was founded in 1948?

Patrice added Tel Aviv so the map would be correct for the other WIF add-ons that start post WW II.

The hex where Jaffa is also has the city of Tel Aviv, on the official 2004 (and also 2000) WiF FE maps, so it is normal that MWiF has it. On these maps, it is the capital of a minor country that only exist for PatiF, so it is only considered as a normal city in WiF FE games.

In reality, Tel Aviv was a city in 1940-1944, I have it on my Colliers 1940 & 1944 atlasses, it had 140k inhabitants. Jaffa had 71k. So it is normal that there is a city in this hex, which has the correct population density for city status.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: trees
post WWII Patton in Flames stuff someday will require lots of new lines on the maps, why not just add Tel Aviv then? WiF is played by people seriously into their history/geography.

And made by people who are seriously into their history / geography too.

Tel Aviv existed with this name since 1910 and as a city since the 1880s (source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv). It had 140k inhabitants in 1940 & 1944, while Jerusalem had 125k and Jaffa 71k and Haifa 99k (source : Collier's Atlasses 1940 & 1944).

[Froonp]

Patrice added Tel Aviv so the map would be correct for the other WIF add-ons that start post WW II.

I did not add it, it is already on the WiF FE maps (it is not on the 1996 maps, but it is on the 2000 & 2004 maps).

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: trees
Isn't the 'Monte Cassino' hex a mountain hex on the paper maps? I can't recall but it seems a little incongruous to see that on a clear hex. Ditto 'Bohemian Forest' on two mountain hexes...

Bohemian Forest : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Forest.
Mont Cassino : If you look at the place from Google Earth, you see that it is placed in this hex, which is a clear hex on the WiF FE maps. It is on a hill, that is near the nearby mountains. In WiF, the mountains starts in the next hex, but in reality there's a bit of a mountain in this clear hex. So its real place is here, but its real terrain cannot be shown properly due to the hex scale.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: iamspamus
I think that there is a crossing arrow from Gibraltar (Jabral Tariq or mtn of Tariq in Arabic, I think) to Tangier. If so, it's hard to see with the sea space dividing line.

Yes there is a straits conenction there that is being overwritten by the sea area boundary. I have them slightly offset, but I need to make it more pronounced. Thanks.

Steve, why not redo the strait symbol, and have it 4 times its current thickness, so that it will appear even if placed under another symbol (port, city), or sea area boundary ? It would have to have its color changed, as the red if made 4 times thicker would maybe stand out too much.

Another solution would be to have it appear twice, with one on each part of the sea area boundary. The strait symbol would be a double "double points arrow".

[Froonp]

But that's my point. They are mostly only landmarks because of WW2. El Alemein, for example, was just a dusty railway junction. I don't really care but if we wanted to fill in the map with more detail we could use major towns that are potential battle sites (which would include some of the historical ones).

Well, giving some historical feel to the map isn't good to you ? For example, I also placed Guernica & Gallipoli on the map. I for one like to have the map related to our tormented history. I would have placed more if it would have been possible (Waterloo, Berezina, Agincourt etc... but it would have been a catastroph [:D]).
In the desertic areas, well, there is no city or village that stands out before the others, so placing the ones where a ww2 battle took place does not feels bad to me.

[Frederyck]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Torne Älv
Lule Älv
Skellefte Älv and
Ume Älv.

In fact, when I search them in wikipedia.com, I find :
Torne
Lule
Skellefte
Ume
So I've put thoss names on the map.

You are correct in that "Älv" means "River", but I sincerely think that dropping the "river" suffix in these four cases is wrong. For example, the "Ljusnan River" is correctly called "Ljusnan" on the map, but the proper name of "Torne Älv" *is* "Torne Älv", and not just "Torne". The names Torne, Skellefte, Ume and Lule are usually used to signify the respective towns adjacent to each river. Only Lule is on the map. Their correct names all end with "å" (as per Luleå on the map), but are colloquially known without the last vowel.

(If you really want your head messed up, the suffix "å" actually means "stream" in Swedish... )

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: iamspamus
I think that there is a crossing arrow from Gibraltar (Jabral Tariq or mtn of Tariq in Arabic, I think) to Tangier. If so, it's hard to see with the sea space dividing line.

Yes there is a straits conenction there that is being overwritten by the sea area boundary. I have them slightly offset, but I need to make it more pronounced. Thanks.

Steve, why not redo the strait symbol, and have it 4 times its current thickness, so that it will appear even if placed under another symbol (port, city), or sea area boundary ? It would have to have its color changed, as the red if made 4 times thicker would maybe stand out too much.

Another solution would be to have it appear twice, with one on each part of the sea area boundary. The strait symbol would be a double "double points arrow".

I am happy with the symbol for the straits hexside. It only has trouble being seen when it coincides with a sea area boundary, and I believe I can fix that by moving it to the side. I already moved it somewhat to the side (it use to disappear completely) so shoving it a bit further isn't difficult. Making more dramatic changes is likely to create new problems (as you noted with the change in width requiring a change in color). Minimal changes are safest.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I am happy with the symbol for the straits hexside. It only has trouble being seen when it coincides with a sea area boundary, and I believe I can fix that by moving it to the side. I already moved it somewhat to the side (it use to disappear completely) so shoving it a bit further isn't difficult. Making more dramatic changes is likely to create new problems (as you noted with the change in width requiring a change in color). Minimal changes are safest.

Yes, but offsetting it to one side of the sea area boundary can lead people to believe that the strait hexside is only on that side of the sea area boundary, as this is the case with the paper maps. Having it centered is the best solution for that.

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Frederyck

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Torne Älv
Lule Älv
Skellefte Älv and
Ume Älv.

In fact, when I search them in wikipedia.com, I find :
Torne
Lule
Skellefte
Ume
So I've put thoss names on the map.

You are correct in that "Älv" means "River", but I sincerely think that dropping the "river" suffix in these four cases is wrong. For example, the "Ljusnan River" is correctly called "Ljusnan" on the map, but the proper name of "Torne Älv" *is* "Torne Älv", and not just "Torne". The names Torne, Skellefte, Ume and Lule are usually used to signify the respective towns adjacent to each river. Only Lule is on the map. Their correct names all end with "å" (as per Luleå on the map), but are colloquially known without the last vowel.

(If you really want your head messed up, the suffix "å" actually means "stream" in Swedish... )

Ok let me put my 2 cents in here ... since I posted the original name list.

First. In swedish both names are correct. For example Luleälven and Lule älv is correct. So why did I choose the first one? Answer: (using Luleälen as an example)
1. No one uses Lule älv when speaking about it. At least I've never heard it and I have moved around some in Sweden.
2. More importantly, on swedish maps the common usage is Luleälven and not Lule älv (english language online example: http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Map____2584.aspx you have to zoom in quite a bit to se river names).
3. In Nationalencyklopedin (the swedish national encyclopedia) if you look for Luleälven or Lule älv both are of course accepted but primacy is given to Luleälven. While wikipedia is useful I would trust Nationalencyklopedin more on issues concerning Sweden.

Second. In english I have less reference material and knowlege. So I assume the usage Lule River is correct since älv means river in english. However (as noted by Frederyck) if you use Lule instead of Lule River you loose the distinction between the river and the city giving the river its name. Not a large problem to us here since with the exeption of Luleå none of the cities are on the map. But in my opinion the most correct name should still be Luleälven or perhaps Lule river. Would be intresting to see an english map over the area.

Could also be noted that the å at the end of the cities at these rivers is a fairly 'new' thing. Put there in the 18th century by some language bureaucrat to "Swedyfy" the north of the country if I remember correctly. Still today the å is pronounced silent in the north of Sweden and not so silent in the south.

So there is my 257 cents. [:)]

[Frederyck]

ORIGINAL: Toed
First. In swedish both names are correct. For example Luleälven and Lule älv is correct. So why did I choose the first one? Answer: (using Luleälen as an example)
1. No one uses Lule älv when speaking about it. At least I've never heard it and I have moved around some in Sweden.
2. More importantly, on swedish maps the common usage is Luleälven and not Lule älv (english language online example: http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Map____2584.aspx you have to zoom in quite a bit to se river names).
3. In Nationalencyklopedin (the swedish national encyclopedia) if you look for Luleälven or Lule älv both are of course accepted but primacy is given to Luleälven. While wikipedia is useful I would trust Nationalencyklopedin more on issues concerning Sweden.

I agree that ne.se should be given precedence over any wiki, and I can live with "Luleälven" on the map. However, I must disagree that no-one uses "Lule Älv" in speech. A colleague at work was born in Lule, and my boss was born in Skellefte, and they both strongly argue that in everyday speech, you should say "Lule Älv" or "Skellefte Älv". But I digress... [:)]

[Peter Stauffenberg]

If you want som small text in the Norwegian resource hex then you could use:
Knaben molybden mines or just Knaben.

When WW2 started the Knaben molybden mines were the only operational molybden mines in Europe at the time. Molybden was very essential for the war industry. So the Germans rushed to cease control over the mines soon after the invasion of Norway in 1940.

The Allies tried later to prevent the Germans from having such easy access to the essential war material, molybden. So they tried to bomb the mines. The first time was 3rd March 1943 where 5 English Mosquito airplanes made some damage, but not much. The second time the Allies bombed the mines was 16th November 1943 with as much as 263 American B17 bombers. Half of this force bombed Knaben mines and the other half continued further to bomb the Vemork heavy water factories.

So both Knaben and Vemork are nice places to have on the MWIF map. [:)] Vemork was important for the heavy water production and the Norwegian resistance sabotaged the factories and delayed the German production of heavy water production so they were nowhere close to complete an atomic bomb. But in retrospect historians have found out that the Germans never gave full attention to atomic bomb research so they were years away from making one. So they would never have beaten the Americans to making it first. The German policy was that they needed to win the war BEFORE the atomic bomb could be ready. So they preferred research in other areas that could help them win the war SOON. The Germans knew the war was lost if they couldn't win in 1942 or 1943 at the latest.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

If you want som small text in the Norwegian resource hex then you could use:
Knaben molybden mines or just Knaben.

When WW2 started the Knaben molybden mines were the only operational molybden mines in Europe at the time. Molybden was very essential for the war industry. So the Germans rushed to cease control over the mines soon after the invasion of Norway in 1940.

The Allies tried later to prevent the Germans from having such easy access to the essential war material, molybden. So they tried to bomb the mines. The first time was 3rd March 1943 where 5 English Mosquito airplanes made some damage, but not much. The second time the Allies bombed the mines was 16th November 1943 with as much as 263 American B17 bombers. Half of this force bombed Knaben mines and the other half continued further to bomb the Vemork heavy water factories.

So both Knaben and Vemork are nice places to have on the MWIF map. [:)] Vemork was important for the heavy water production and the Norwegian resistance sabotaged the factories and delayed the German production of heavy water production so they were nowhere close to complete an atomic bomb. But in retrospect historians have found out that the Germans never gave full attention to atomic bomb research so they were years away from making one. So they would never have beaten the Americans to making it first. The German policy was that they needed to win the war BEFORE the atomic bomb could be ready. So they preferred research in other areas that could help them win the war SOON. The Germans knew the war was lost if they couldn't win in 1942 or 1943 at the latest.

This is exactly the kind of contribution that I was looking for. I like putting names on anonymous resources on the map.
I added Knaben.
Vemork was already written on the map, albeit maybe too small.

[trees]

I like WiF (and this website) because it helps me keep learning my history and geography, thanks for the answers Patrice. I thought I had read once that the name Tel Aviv didn't exist until 1948 but I had that wrong. That Bohemian Forest link was pretty cool, probably someday wargame maps will include hyperlinks too?

So why didn't the Allies just pick the blitz table to get past Monte Cassino? I know the terrain won't change but I had never thought about that hex before; seeing it labeled immediately made me wonder about it.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: trees

I like WiF (and this website) because it helps me keep learning my history and geography, thanks for the answers Patrice. I thought I had read once that the name Tel Aviv didn't exist until 1948 but I had that wrong. That Bohemian Forest link was pretty cool, probably someday wargame maps will include hyperlinks too?

So why didn't the Allies just pick the blitz table to get past Monte Cassino? I know the terrain won't change but I had never thought about that hex before; seeing it labeled immediately made me wonder about it.

I'm pretty sure they had a fortification hex in here.
They had all over Italy.