WAR IN THE MEDITERRANEAN: Speedy vs Pauk

[pauk]

thanks Fremen! As you may know i didn't look at the Allied side so i don't know actual enemy strength....

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: fremen

I see Mandrake you are a very "possitive" man. I hope enjoy the mod.[:D]
OF COURSE the Wheather is HARD CODED. Can a single man manage the winds and clouds..?
The two armoured division in Barce are 50% force, low moral and low supplies.

Yes, perhaps I was a bit harsh [:)] Lo siento.

Sorry about the Spanish/Italian mix-up as well. I guess the Italian fighters were doing so well I presumed you were Italian[:)]

Fantastic effort on your part I would say.

[Nikademus]

how about playing with advanced weather turned off?

[kokubokan25]

ORIGINAL: pauk


thanks Fremen! As you may know i didn't look at the Allied side so i don't know actual enemy strength....

Sorry Pauk. Was a "lapsus". Axis prevail anyway the first months..[:D]

[Wolfie1]

Sandstorms seem reasonable if the weather is hard coded.

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,

Haven't run the turn yet but I can tell you this. The 2 x ARM units were well supplied = met their needs and didn't have low morale. Disruption was in 60's due to bombing. I'm surprised by the result and with SigInt telling me of the arrival of more German/Italian units from Benghazi the Allies are in trouble on the land in NA

[spence]

One thing that troubles me about this Mod is the land combat model. You guys are not far enough along yet but in the Western Desert the introduction of a new tank model tended to have major ramifications on the battlefield.

I used the Manchurian Scenario some time back to see/test how well the game modelled armored units and armored warfare and concluded that all the various stats etc for the different tanks must be pure fluff. In my test, repeated several times, the tinfoil Japanese tanks armed with squirt guns, did very very credibly against T-34/85s and other late war Russian models. Given the results, it seems that had the Germans had had a 37mm AT gun like the ones on Japanese armor, Fall Barbarossa would have succeeded easily.

BTW I manipulated all the variables possible in the editor (except armor and gun values) to be equal so that the test would only be affected by those differences.

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: spence

One thing that troubles me about this Mod is the land combat model. You guys are not far enough along yet but in the Western Desert the introduction of a new tank model tended to have major ramifications on the battlefield.

I used the Manchurian Scenario some time back to see/test how well the game modelled armored units and armored warfare and concluded that all the various stats etc for the different tanks must be pure fluff. In my test, repeated several times, the tinfoil Japanese tanks armed with squirt guns, did very very credibly against T-34/85s and other late war Russian models. Given the results, it seems that had the Germans had had a 37mm AT gun like the ones on Japanese armor, Fall Barbarossa would have succeeded easily.

BTW I manipulated all the variables possible in the editor (except armor and gun values) to be equal so that the test would only be affected by those differences.

I agree with you. My understanding of the ground battle algorithm is that in a first phase both sides will exchange fire and so disable squads, tanks and so on from the opposing side, and then the able squads of each side will be counted and with several adjustements (supplies, support, terrain, fatigue, morale, etc...) will have a global ASS value calculated.

I think that in the first phase, the rating of weapons and armor is taken into account, but that it is not in the second where a light tank = a heavy tank = an infantry squad = 1 ASS point. And what we see in ground battle animation is that the first phase will only affect some % of one side or another.

So basically if you have 12 000 infantry men (1000 squads) with no antitank guns or weapons facing 400 heavy tanks, the tanks will suffer no loss in the first phase and may disrupt 40-80 enemy squads, but in the assault phase the infantry will have more than 900 ASS points and the tanks only 400 and they will be routed. And a retreating unit will lose 16% of its OOB as destroyed (not disrupted), all supplies and so on...

So in WITP ground battles, quantity is better than quality...

[qgaliana]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

ORIGINAL: spence

One thing that troubles me about this Mod is the land combat model. You guys are not far enough along yet but in the Western Desert the introduction of a new tank model tended to have major ramifications on the battlefield.

I used the Manchurian Scenario some time back to see/test how well the game modelled armored units and armored warfare and concluded that all the various stats etc for the different tanks must be pure fluff. In my test, repeated several times, the tinfoil Japanese tanks armed with squirt guns, did very very credibly against T-34/85s and other late war Russian models. Given the results, it seems that had the Germans had had a 37mm AT gun like the ones on Japanese armor, Fall Barbarossa would have succeeded easily.

BTW I manipulated all the variables possible in the editor (except armor and gun values) to be equal so that the test would only be affected by those differences.

I agree with you. My understanding of the ground battle algorithm is that in a first phase both sides will exchange fire and so disable squads, tanks and so on from the opposing side, and then the able squads of each side will be counted and with several adjustements (supplies, support, terrain, fatigue, morale, etc...) will have a global ASS value calculated.

I think that in the first phase, the rating of weapons and armor is taken into account, but that it is not in the second where a light tank = a heavy tank = an infantry squad = 1 ASS point. And what we see in ground battle animation is that the first phase will only affect some % of one side or another.

So basically if you have 12 000 infantry men (1000 squads) with no antitank guns or weapons facing 400 heavy tanks, the tanks will suffer no loss in the first phase and may disrupt 40-80 enemy squads, but in the assault phase the infantry will have more than 900 ASS points and the tanks only 400 and they will be routed. And a retreating unit will lose 16% of its OOB as destroyed (not disrupted), all supplies and so on...

So in WITP ground battles, quantity is better than quality...

Not quite fluff - I think the device ratings matter a whole lot for the casualty calculation. But unfortunately you're both right as far as taking ground goes, they don't seem to weigh in the calculation.

Did you try your experiment in one of those no retreat no surrender situations Spence? You can usually get a lot of mileage out of tanks when there are no useful guns on the other side.

[Halsey]

ORIGINAL: Wolfie1

Sandstorms seem reasonable if the weather is hard coded.

Change the thunderstorm bitmap to a giant dust cloud.[:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

ORIGINAL: spence

One thing that troubles me about this Mod is the land combat model. You guys are not far enough along yet but in the Western Desert the introduction of a new tank model tended to have major ramifications on the battlefield.

I used the Manchurian Scenario some time back to see/test how well the game modelled armored units and armored warfare and concluded that all the various stats etc for the different tanks must be pure fluff. In my test, repeated several times, the tinfoil Japanese tanks armed with squirt guns, did very very credibly against T-34/85s and other late war Russian models. Given the results, it seems that had the Germans had had a 37mm AT gun like the ones on Japanese armor, Fall Barbarossa would have succeeded easily.

BTW I manipulated all the variables possible in the editor (except armor and gun values) to be equal so that the test would only be affected by those differences.

I agree with you. My understanding of the ground battle algorithm is that in a first phase both sides will exchange fire and so disable squads, tanks and so on from the opposing side, and then the able squads of each side will be counted and with several adjustements (supplies, support, terrain, fatigue, morale, etc...) will have a global ASS value calculated.

I think that in the first phase, the rating of weapons and armor is taken into account, but that it is not in the second where a light tank = a heavy tank = an infantry squad = 1 ASS point. And what we see in ground battle animation is that the first phase will only affect some % of one side or another.

So basically if you have 12 000 infantry men (1000 squads) with no antitank guns or weapons facing 400 heavy tanks, the tanks will suffer no loss in the first phase and may disrupt 40-80 enemy squads, but in the assault phase the infantry will have more than 900 ASS points and the tanks only 400 and they will be routed. And a retreating unit will lose 16% of its OOB as destroyed (not disrupted), all supplies and so on...

So in WITP ground battles, quantity is better than quality...

Maybe you should just call it "AV"... "ASS points"...[:D]

Sorry...[8|]

[niceguy2005]

a global ASS value calculated.

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

Oh no you did not just say that.
[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Dili]

no antitank guns or weapons facing 400 heavy tanks

  Mines, traps, obstacules, weak armored spots in tanks etc.

[pauk]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/08/42



Italian Navy addopted Japanese tactic - Tobruk is bombarded by night! As i've mentioned that to Speedy naval bombardments may become an issue once when target is well reconed and more capital ships are involved in the action...

Naval bombardment of Tobruk, at 50,128 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed

21 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Ascari
DD Alpino
DD Alfredo Oriani
DD Vincenzo Gioberti, Shell hits 1
DD Turbine
DD Euro
CL Muzzio Attendolo
CL Montecuccoli
BB Conte di Cavour, Shell hits 4


Allied ground losses:
248 casualties reported
Guns lost 10
Vehicles lost 2

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 10

There is nothing that Fremen can do about it, i'm afraid. Air raids with 'reasonable' number of ac are working good - Italian and German bombers suffers losses due to flak even at 20K... but that can not be said for massive air raids on 6K - results are WiTPish[:'(]
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 x 28
CR-25 x 5
MC-200 x 18
Re-2001 x 16
BR 20 M x 33
Ju-88A-4 x 49
Bf-109F-4 R2 Recon x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
CR-25: 1 destroyed
BR 20 M: 10 damaged
Ju-88A-4: 10 damaged


Allied ground losses:
39 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 106

Mostly at 6000 feet

As you may see...

Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 T x 7
Ju-88A-4 x 48
Hs-126 B-2 x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
Ju-88A-4: 5 damaged


Allied ground losses:
30 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 13

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
10 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
6 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
4 x SM 79 T bombing at 21000 feet
9 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
3 x SM 79 T bombing at 21000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 21000 feet

Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
CR-42 x 32
SM 84 x 6
IMAM Ro-37 x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
CR-42: 4 destroyed, 7 damaged
SM 84: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 12

CR-42 bombing at 2000 feet
SM 84 bombing at 6000 feet

Day Air attack on 9th Indian Brigade, at 47,129

Japanese aircraft
Bf-109F-4 Trop x 10
Ju-87 D (Ger) x 13

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
26 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Ju-87 D (Ger) bombing at 2000 feet

Day Air attack on TF, near Malta at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
Bf-109F-4 x 35

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
PT MTB-66
PT MTB-63, Shell hits 4
PT MTB-64, Shell hits 4
PT MTB-62

Ok, Plan C (how original name[8|]) is not a secret anymore. Englander attacked my transports north of Benghazi which delivered supplies few days ago....

Day Air attack on TF at 45,126

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 11
Hudson I x 6

Japanese Ships
PC Enrico Cosenzo
PC Nicola Fabrizi
AK Trapani
DE Pallade

at 8000 feet

Ariete push enemy towards Egypt once again. Only one armoured unit left (other one already retreats before this attack....note the extremely light losses!

Ground combat at 46,127

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 5594 troops, 54 guns, 194 vehicles, Assault Value = 167

Defending force 4562 troops, 98 guns, 181 vehicles, Assault Value = 142

Japanese max assault: 350 - adjusted assault: 154

Allied max defense: 92 - adjusted defense: 18

Japanese assault odds: 8 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
11 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
22 casualties reported

Hehe... one of two retreating enemy units arrives at Msus and tried to capture it. But panzers are moving fast through the desert...[:'(]

Ground combat at Msus

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 7337 troops, 129 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 217

Defending force 15458 troops, 194 guns, 567 vehicles, Assault Value = 522

Allied max assault: 194 - adjusted assault: 3

Japanese max defense: 549 - adjusted defense: 364

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0)


Japanese ground losses:
361 casualties reported
Guns lost 8
Vehicles lost 3

Allied ground losses:
362 casualties reported
Guns lost 21

[Capt. Harlock]

Italian Navy addopted Japanese tactic - Tobruk is bombarded by night! As i've mentioned that to Speedy naval bombardments may become an issue once when target is well reconed and more capital ships are involved in the action...

Naval bombardment of Tobruk, at 50,128 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed

21 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Ascari
DD Alpino
DD Alfredo Oriani
DD Vincenzo Gioberti, Shell hits 1
DD Turbine
DD Euro
CL Muzzio Attendolo
CL Montecuccoli
BB Conte di Cavour, Shell hits 4


Allied ground losses:
248 casualties reported
Guns lost 10
Vehicles lost 2

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 10

Excellent move. But are you going to have enough fuel to put multiple Italian BB's to sea? (That was the historical problem.)

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent


So in WITP ground battles, quantity is better than quality...

Up to a point yes. It also depends on the orders that the players employ. Disruption is a major key here. Given that the combat "is" abstracted to account for tactical maneuvers by INF/Armor etc (vs. a more Steel Panther's specific type action) getting the desired 2:1 modified combat odds is not a simple matter of comparing device stats, be they tank or squad.

Do the stats matter? yes.....but they are not a guarantee. I did some tests of my own on tanks in the game. Japanese "paper" tanks tend to suffer much more heavily if faced with an enemy tank that far outclasses it....but this can be overcome if the non-Jap player makes a wrong move...such as attacking and failing (0-1) resulting in a high disruption value. If the Japanese unit then counterattacks and gets a 2:1 it will force back the enemy unit causing a % of permanent losses. So it's a "victory" for the Japanese unit even if they lose 30 vehicles in the process vs. 2 on the enemy side (+ a % more vehicles due to the forced retreat....which could simulate everything from abandoned tanks to stuck in a ditch...fuel starved etc)

If the device stats are similar, numbers and strategy will become even more important.

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,

I've been thinking on this scenario over the past couple of days and have come up with a couple of suggestions/thoughts.

This is a play test so I wll totally open as to what I have here.

I feel the pace of this is way too fast.

Within 10 days Malta is dead and 60% of the available Allied force in NA is shattered and the Axis will be in Tobruk within 2 weeks.

All I have left from Tobruk to Alexandria are 2 x Division and 2 x Bde all of which are between 50-66% ready.

The problems I see are thus:

1. As we all know the stock WITP model is a fairly all or nothing model.

As such land and air battles are generally over very quickly and the loser loses badly. This is not the right model for WITM. As such I feel the air model needs to be tweaked to reflect the combat conditions. I feel Nik can be invaluable here guys. He knows a lot more on this than me but I think we need to lower the available number of aircraft for BOTH sides to prevent uber air battles and prevent the uber smashing of Malta (within 2 days[8|]). With kloiwer numbers of planes operational then more realistic air battles will be seen and the easy smashing of any enemy base will not be possible. Nik - would changing the Durability levels help here?

2. The land model is also not right for NA IMO. This is going to be hard to change really hard/if not impossible. I feel the once more all or nothing model doesn't help here. As my ARM units have retreated they are TOTALLY wrecked and will NEVER recover (their full strength TOE is that of an ARM Bn). As such I will never end up with Shermans/Grants etc in these units ever again. Fremen is it possible to change the full TOAE of both Axis/Allied ARM units to make sure they will always have the chance to receover to full TOE? For example make them in the slots of IJA Tank Divisions and USA Arm Div rather than Tnk Bn slots?

So rather then them having a maximum capability of say 54 x Sherman they can have 108 x Sherman, 54 x Grant. Does that make sense?

Once retreated its a snowball effect where by Axis armour (in this case) can keep on attacking day after day and within 2 months they will be in Alexandria and with the sheer number of Axis units in NA there is nothing I can do about it. Of the top of my noggin he will have:

15th Pz
21st Pz
Ariete
Sarbratha
90th Light

Pauk - do you have Trento/Littorio div out there as well?

I think there will be another 2-4 It. units too.

With the land model at game start it is a matter of who gets the most there first will win. With the starting positions the Axis have a big advatage here since thy can deploy there untis forward via road quickly. The 2 nearest Allied formations - 44th Ind Div and Ind Bde are stuck in the dessert = they have no chance to get where they need to be before the Axis has the initiative.

So regarding the land model. We can't change the mechanics but maybe heavily reducing the starting available numbers of each unit - say maybe 20-30% of ready TOE/ That way they have lower chance of doing much and will need more supply to recover.

3. Supply - I don't know here but I feel Pauk has the chance of moving major amounts of supply to NA from Italy and that in time supply/fuel will NOT be a problem for him in NA. Only Pauk can confirm or deny this? If it is such then I feel industry should be lowered in Italy.

4. Allied upgrades. As fremen has mentioned I feel a change of nationality from British to Aussie etc will help since it will give the Allied player the same chance of upgrading his units as the Axis can. At present all I have are 3 x Spit and 3 x P40 squadrons. The rest are Hurri = dead meet to any decent Italian/Geman fighter.

Just some thoughts guys but at present The Axis will be in Alexandria within 3-4 months and there ain't much I can do about it[;)]

[Ron Saueracker]

I guess one can see why the official War in the Med project based on the WITP engine was shelved permanently. Kudos for trying guys. Looked great.

[kokubokan25]

Thanks for your support Ron. [:D] Is the WITP engine free of heavy problems? I can remember many words like "screwed" refered to WITP land combat.
WITM had problems (keep in mind is a mod), but is playable, if you can forget some issues...
 
Agree with most of your toughts Speedy.
Sneer pointed me days ago about the Allied (and axis) TOE problem. Was a very heavy error by my side.
Mifune and me are now working on this issue and will be ready (i hope), next week. The land units are totally re-writen, changing HQs, TOEs and start positions. With those changes the land units can recover to full TOE.
The A2A model is now standarized to RHS system. However, i'm not sure are the correct. Italian aircraft continue show EXCESIVE level and combative spirit. The Hurrie continue with bad level so all the british fighters will be converted to Commonwealth to allow upgrade to Spits.
 
The Malta problem: Sorry that but i think this issue is impossible to change. If the axis side want DESTROY Malta, Malta will be destroyed. The axis had so many planes at range and the number of sqn/groups are historical.
 

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: fremen

Thanks for your support Ron. [:D]

Fremen;

You are one forgiving guy. [:D]

I think it is a great effort. It my require some deviation for historical positions/strengths for play balance. Perhaps some fortifications for the Allies or improved readiness at the start? Better CO's, etc etc

Perhaps the aircraft attributes could be tweaked a bit but the TO&E's left the same?

Perhaps expand the scale to 1 km and company/Bn level units? [;)]