Plans for the Horse and Musket Series

[Tim Coakley]

Work is in progress to advance the Horse and Musket 2 series of games.

We are preparing to re-release the first two games in the series in the next few months. Prussia's War Machine and Prussia's Glory will include all the original scenarios, a selection of engine upgrades, and new terrain graphics. We are also looking at adding a few bonus scenarios.

The next game in the series, "Warriors of Russia", will add more armies and scenarios.

Some of the engine changes include:
1) Larger hex size: this allows for a better scale between the units and the terrain
2) Changing to a percentage system for values: this will allow for some other feature additions down the road
3) More terrain types: better distinction between terrain types
4) Editable data tables- combat values, movement values, morale/quality values: now you can fine tune the game
5) Defensive formation: used for defending towns and strongpoints

Mike Cooney, the original programmer, is on board along with David Erikson. Dave created the original design and he is designing the scenarios for Warriors of Russia. Magnus Pettersson is covering the new terrain and units.

I welcome all your ideas for the game. I make no promises on including everything in the game, but my goal is to have a series of easily editable games that provide a great gaming experience for the Age of Muskets.


Prussian War Machine
-------
Kolin
Kolin
Advance Guard
Dogs of War
Krzeczhor's Hill
The Oak Wood
Assault on Krzeczhor (from the PG bonus scenarios)
Prague
Prague
Manstein's Attack
Sterbohol
The Gap
Hohenfriedeberg (WAS)
Hohenfriedeberg
Bayreuth Dragoons
No Quarter
Pilgramshain
The Gule
Zieten's Ford
Mollwits (WAS)
Mollwits
Romer's Charge
Chotusits
Chotusits
Chotusits is Burning
Fighting for Time
No Frederick Variant
BONUS #1-Battle of Liegnitz
BONUS #2-Lucchese's counterattack at Leuthen


Prussia's Glory
-------
Hochkirch
Hochlirch
Arenberg's Attack
Lobositz
Lobositz
Kyau's Recon
Lobosch Hill
Leuthen
Leuthen
Borne Calamity
Final Assault
No Flank March
Old Foes
Reserves South
Sagschuts
Torgau
Torgau
Killing Fields
Uppercut
Soor
Soor
Blood and Glory
BONUS #1-Assault on the Graner Koppe (Soor)
BONUS #2-Second Cavalry Attack at Lobositz


Warriors of Russia
-------(sub-secanrios still being defined)
Gross-Jagersdorf
Zorndorf
Kunersdorf
Kay/Paltzing
Burkersdorf
Bunzelwitz
Güstow
Fehrbellin
Wollin
Löcknitz

[Panama Red]

Tim:
Thanks for the update.[&o][&o][&o]

[sol_invictus]

Finally, much good info. I know I'm pushing my luck, but how about a general release date for Warriors of Russia. Will the revamped PWM and PG come as a single release? Will the bug where units sometimes auto-deploy from Column to Line with no enemy units near and sometimes facing away from the enemy when they are near be addressed? That has always drove me crazy. Can't wait to see some screenshots of Warriors in Russia.

[DeadInThrench]

Great that Matrix has worked things out with Boku... and great that Mike Cooney and Dave Erickson are on board with the agreement.

But... to be honest... and I hate to say this but.... otherwise I find the announcement here in these forums... to be a major dissapointment.

First... I *thought* that the idea of resolving the size problem between the units and the terrain by increasing the hex size... and thus effectively reducing the size of the units by 75%... had been rejected simply because it made the units too small. But, here in the latest announcement, there it is again. Hmmmm.

Second... everyone that has addressed the concern agrees that the major need for improvement with HnM2... is the AI..... getting rid of the 'dithering' and... ideally.... attacking in a much more coherent fashion. But, I don't see AI improvements addressed anywheres.

Third.... I proposed that the battle selection for each game be re-addressed with the idea of each game being better focused on one aspect of the era... and apparently my comments were completely ignored. In any case... major battles like Rossback and Kesselsdorf aren't included while some included with the Russian Warriors I can't find any reference to anywhere on the internet.

I am not wasting my time making comments in this forum anymore. IMO there is lots of opportunity for making HnM a much greater game... but if the resource to do this is just not there, it is just not there.

I recently threw a program together to take the map from the Guildford Courthouse scenerio from -an unnamed other game- and convert it from the 30 yards per hex it was in to the PWM format and 60 yards per hex. So.... guess I will just stick with PWM and projects like this maybe getting others involved in other forums.

DiT

[Dave Erickson]

Hi Dead,

I'm the designer of the HnM games and I'll be creating scenarios for Warriors of Russia and the "bonus" scenarios for PWM and PG. I can answer your questions about scenario selection.

1) Kesselsdorf is not included simply because I can't find a decent map of the battle. Duffy has one in one of his books (I can't recall which, right off hand), but it's not very detailed. If I could find a good map, then, yes, Kesselsdorf would be there.

2) Rossbach is not included because it's an odd-man-out battle in that it features French and German forces instead of Fred's usual adversaries. In the original HnM, we didn't want to go to the rather extensive effort of producing these armies when they appear in just one battle. It will certainly show up in a future installment, though, if we decide to do a western front game.

3) The battles in Warriors of Russia that you've never heard of before are probably the Swedish scenarios. Gross-Jagersdorf, Kunersdorf, Zorndorf, and Paltzig are the big Russian battles that form the backbone of the game. Burkersdorf is a 1762 engagement in the which the Russians were actually allied to Prussia going up against the Austrians. Bunzelwitz was a 1761 Russo-Austrian attack on Frederick that never happened, but, from a gaming standpoint, should have. [:)] The Swedish battles add variety and depth to the package.

Hope this helps.

Dave Erickson

[Tim Coakley]

Checking in on the forums from work, so just a short reply...

1) Only way to see change is to keep with us...

2) Graphics: I have heard the requests, and we are looking at things...but there were many different suggestions.

3) AI: this is a re-release now that we have access to the games. AI improvements will come over time with additional releases.

4) Battles: Dave E covered this below...WOR is next and then it should be a West Front game to round out the 7YW.

Tim

[sol_invictus]

I sense the work of Magnus in these Swedish battles.[;)]

[Magnus]

Could be Arinvald, you never know I thought it could be nice to include the SYW Swedes once and for all, I have many more battles of course that could be made, but we'll concentrate on these four to start with and hopefully a full fledged hypothetical battle between the main swedish army and the prussian corps.

[roth]

Do the economics of the games' productions allow for those of us who have already purchased both games to purchase the updated PWM and PG at a discounted rate if we show evidence of those purchases? I want to encourage your work and further development of the series as much as the next guy, but this will be the third time I've purchased some of these battles.

Thanks

[DeadInThrench]

Dave....

Thanks for responding and let me just say... for starters..... that I put together a program that converts original Dragoon, HnM, and player developed scenarios for both, to PWM format. Have to define the artwork used for each unit (I used Austrian line as the default) and make some other adjustments but otherwise, they work fine under PWM (I have no idea if they would work in PG).

In other words.... easy for me to have Kesselsdorf, Rossback, Freidberg, Leignitz, Kunnersdorf, etc, etc (including all the GNW, ARW and WSS battles) running under PWM.

So.... if you are interested..... no problem in me sending you converted scenarios... or the conversion program itself... just let me know where to send to. Would hopefully at least make your scenario generation easier using these scenarios (you did many of them yourself I imagine <g>) as a starting point.

As far as Kesselsdorf is concerned.... a player developed scenario and... most likely the individual did not have any better map than you. But.... good to have a battle in PWM where the "old Dessauer" (the architect of the Prussian army) is commanding.

Rossback would require Magnus doing the French and other german artwork for the battle... but hopefully that would be doable without much difficulty (Magnus, no?). Could potentially use the HnM Rossback art as the starting point. Hard to imagine PG without Rossback included.

Otherwise.... Freidberg would be a nice battle to include in PG as it pits Prince Henry against the Reichsarmee and... that is something different than FtG and his battles and thus is interesting in a different light. Might need more artwork from Magnus though I do not know.

Will post some comments otherwise... before I get timed out on this post.

DiT

[Tim Coakley]

DiT,
shoot me an e-mail with the program you are using. Mike Cooney has done one as well, but never hurts to see new ideas.

I have a large # of old version scenarios and I have been in contact with some original designers about updating them for future games.

I have permission from William Sherman to use his AWI scenarios as the basis for updating scenarios for a future game.

Regards,
Tim

[DeadInThrench]

OK, I have sent that to you... if you do not get it let me know... maybe send me a new email.

I have all of Bill Sherman's scenarios... not only the ARW (or AWI, whatever) but the FIW also. However, in developing these scenarios Bill Sherman was constained by the 150 yards per hex scale of HnM (as were the ARW scenarios developed originally for the HnM release)... and this usually meant regiment sized units instead of battalion sized units normally used in HnM. A matter of two line British and Continental units (as compared to the 3 line Prussians and Austrians) and generally smaller sized units regardless.

You can in fact (conceptually speaking) generate a scenario with any scale you want.... but looking at batallion sized units for the Guilford Courthouse scenario I am working on.... I pretty much settled on a scale of '6'.... 60 yards per hex and 6 minute turns. With this... I am looking at a max unit size of 192 (1.6 men per yard per line.... just something I came up with) and most units in this battle pretty much fit into this as battalions normally (except the British Highlanders).. and the time frame, if the battle lasted as it did historically, would be 15 turns, which IMO is pretty reasonable.

Uh, yeah.... I realize this is something down the road. Maybe I will start a separate thread on this... in case others are interested in commenting or playtesting. There are MANY questions... like the continental infantry having 8 companies of line infantry... and one company of light infantry.

DiT

[Iñaki Harrizabalagatar]

ORIGINAL: Tim Coakley

Work is in progress to advance the Horse and Musket 2 series of games.

We are preparing to re-release the first two games in the series in the next few months. Prussia's War Machine and Prussia's Glory will include all the original scenarios, a selection of engine upgrades, and new terrain graphics. We are also looking at adding a few bonus scenarios.

The next game in the series, "Warriors of Russia", will add more armies and scenarios.

Some of the engine changes include:
1) Larger hex size: this allows for a better scale between the units and the terrain
2) Changing to a percentage system for values: this will allow for some other feature additions down the road
3) More terrain types: better distinction between terrain types
4) Editable data tables- combat values, movement values, morale/quality values: now you can fine tune the game
5) Defensive formation: used for defending towns and strongpoints

Mike Cooney, the original programmer, is on board along with David Erikson. Dave created the original design and he is designing the scenarios for Warriors of Russia. Magnus Pettersson is covering the new terrain and units.

I welcome all your ideas for the game. I make no promises on including everything in the game, but my goal is to have a series of easily editable games that provide a great gaming experience for the Age of Muskets.


Prussian War Machine
-------
Kolin
Kolin
Advance Guard
Dogs of War
Krzeczhor's Hill
The Oak Wood
Assault on Krzeczhor (from the PG bonus scenarios)
Prague
Prague
Manstein's Attack
Sterbohol
The Gap
Hohenfriedeberg (WAS)
Hohenfriedeberg
Bayreuth Dragoons
No Quarter
Pilgramshain
The Gule
Zieten's Ford
Mollwits (WAS)
Mollwits
Romer's Charge
Chotusits
Chotusits
Chotusits is Burning
Fighting for Time
No Frederick Variant
BONUS #1-Battle of Liegnitz
BONUS #2-Lucchese's counterattack at Leuthen


Prussia's Glory
-------
Hochkirch
Hochlirch
Arenberg's Attack
Lobositz
Lobositz
Kyau's Recon
Lobosch Hill
Leuthen
Leuthen
Borne Calamity
Final Assault
No Flank March
Old Foes
Reserves South
Sagschuts
Torgau
Torgau
Killing Fields
Uppercut
Soor
Soor
Blood and Glory
BONUS #1-Assault on the Graner Koppe (Soor)
BONUS #2-Second Cavalry Attack at Lobositz


Warriors of Russia
-------(sub-secanrios still being defined)
Gross-Jagersdorf
Zorndorf
Kunersdorf
Kay/Paltzing
Burkersdorf
Bunzelwitz
Güstow
Fehrbellin
Wollin
Löcknitz

That is rather disappointing, the game has already a good scenario editor, so I don´t really see the point to ship a whole new game to add some new scenarios, players can make them themselves. I did already some, like Leuthen and Zorndorf, and some other battles from other conflicts of the period. What the game really badly need is a much improved game engine, I submitted a 10 points proposal several months ago to this forum, so I will not repeat myself, but in all, as it stays now, regretfully I will pass Warriors of Russia as I did Prussia´s Glory,

[Tim Coakley]

Unfortunately we will not be able to offer a discount for previous owners of any games. Matrix is the new publisher and has had to face this in the past. There is simply no system in place to do it.


The question is then, "Why buy the games?"

1) There are new features and content in PG and PWM.
2) WOR will add new armies and scenarios.
3) The changes planned for the future will only be backwards compatible to Matrix versions. I have big plans for the series as long as the games sell.

The only way to advance the series is with new games.

Regards,
Tim Coakley

[DeadInThrench]

As far as whether the games sell or not.... IMO.... it is a matter of what is delivered and, I agree with Inaki... that the big need here is how the scenarios play out as a game. Dave Erickson's original design is the big plus here, IMO (does excellant job of capturing the feel for the era), as is Mike Cooney's graphics engine (really nice, IMO).

But... if you march your army across the field and the comptuer controlled enemy is moving it's forces back and forth sideways across the battlefield... dithering... sheesh, what can I say? This is so bad.... I was offered a copy of PG for free and... declined. If the scenarios don't play out well... why bother... and I otherwise have all the scenarios and more in Dragoon, HnM, etc.

Any chance we can get Mike Cooney to fix this one last thing? Might just be a bug in the code... or some random variable going haywire.... or might just take some minor adjustments and the problem is gone.

Also.... implementing the ACTIVATION CHANGE PERCENT enhancment that I stumbled on in the thread with arinvald... might just be a major step forward that does not require extensive code. Because it's a change at the high level as to how the game plays... the impact is much greater... and with it commander's would be active or inactive for periods of turns rather than back and forth... and players would know how long their commanders would be active and could thus plan what they were going to do in that time period.

If the dithering was fixed in a new PWM, and the above (or the equivalent otherwise in game play upgrade) was added... along with other things discussed in these forums (a special formation for line infantry in towns, woods, etc) and.... the bottom line... the scenarios played out much better.... then it would be worth it for me to purchase a new PWM.

As far as the other games are concerned... to be honest I got a problem with the plan here.... in believing that there should a more defined focus for each game and between 10-15 battles covered in each game. I posted my comments on this previously so will not do it again here.

Oh... and the last thing... I dread the thought of the unit size being decreased in size to 25% of what they are currently. IMO... that would be a disastor.

DiT

[Tim Coakley]

Inaki,
wanted to follow up on your comments...
I have put all 10 items you had mentioned (think it was in October) on my action item list.

The games will get improved over time, but everything willnot be out immediately. These are re-releases to get the games back on the market since they are no longer being sold anywhere, and to build a fan base for the future games.

Activation:
- I am looking at having the % of a unit in contact that is needed for auto-activation be a variable
- Also looking at an options toggle for "always activate" for players that do not like the failure to activate
- I want to have some kind of limited activation...maybe game controlled auto-rally for non-activated units.
---Keep in mind the C2 model for the game with activations...if you place your leaders correctly, thare is a good chance that all units will get to activate.

Rally:
---I want to have a reduction in a unit's max morale after routing...this will make them brittle. This is also done by limiting the # of rally points for the leaders (they may be able to rally the unit from route, but can they get them in fighting shape (10 morale).

I am listening...do not lose faith in the series just yet.

Tim

[Tim Coakley]

DiT,
all the fixes and features are not in my list above.

We will look at the dithering of units as a game bug.


Activation:
I understand where you are coming from, but the system you outline has it's own limitations. As a leader, I do not know when my subordinates will perform well and when they will not. Giving a range of turns is artificial.

The "leader funk" is represented by the leader's activation value...the effects are when they fail to activate.
If both sides fail and stop shooting, this is one of the many historical "lulls in the battle".

Side note- I want to end up with 5 levels of leaders......this will also fix some of the concerns with units not be activated.

Rally:
---units do lose a % of stragglers...(this will be a settable variable)...so they can only route so many times before they evaporate.


One last thing...not being defensive, but wanted to respond:
"I am not wasting my time making comments in this forum anymore. IMO there is lots of opportunity for making HnM a much greater game... but if the resource to do this is just not there, it is just not there. "
---Nothing was being done with the games before Matrix stepped in. Now the games can be developed into the future.

[anvl]

how about the ability for the AI to form line and maneuver,, and "group move" formations not breaking up at the first obstical? In beta testing we spent about 3 months working on this,, alas with no luck.. hope you can make this work. For me this is the only really maj problem with the game as it was released.. hehe lots of refinements and other changes could always be done,, but the changes in the editor address,, i think,, many of those types of problems..

I guess what i am trying to say is when the game was released, this is the only thing that didn't work as designed by Dave,,,and programmed by Mike,, good job all around.. all the other suggestions here are basically great ideas to modify or change the original game design\programming...

So if your first step is basically a rerelease of the game to get out and build a player base,, this is, to me,, the most important and actually only,, fix needed to meet that goal..

anvil

[DeadInThrench]

I just played the PWM Mollwitz scenario out as the Prussians and... when it was done, I had lost 4% of my force and the Austrians had lost.... 71%.

Need I say more? Not so much a problem with the dithering in this case as it was the computer controlled Austrians... changing the facing of his units allowing my units to get flanking attacks all over the place.

IMO major work is needed here to get the play of the game up to the level of the initial design and the interface... and if the plan is to re-release PWM and PG with just minor upgrades and then move on to the 7YW Russian battles game.. sheesh... I don't see this happenning any time soon.

Also... a game on the 7YW Russians... and Frederick's 'disastors' in battle... is not exactly the most interesting subject one might want... and if further work on HnM is contingent on this selling well... sheesh.

Whatever... maybe things will work themselves out.

DiT

P.S. Oh, for the record... I had suggested that the Swedes be included in the Russian battles game and.... the most notable battles that the Swedes were in during this period were Vilmanstrand and Tornow, and I saw neither of these included in the Russian battles list.

[anvl]

"2) Changing to a percentage system for values: this will allow for some other feature additions down the road"

this is a really good change if it is the kind of change i think it may be.. I was just talking with Magnus about this very thing not long ago..

glad to see it

anvil