Russian subs showing in CHSCVO

[Buck Beach]

While playing CHSCVO 6.66 PWHEX 6.67 I see the slew of the Ruskie subs in the Pacific Theater. Does anyone know the RL history of these subs and how they kept from sleeping with the sardines with all the surface and air ASW activities of both the Allies and the Japanese going on all around them?

Question is still valid but I discovered that the Russian Subs were being controlled by the computer. I should have put them all in a Sub TF under Human Control in their home port and let them sit.

[el cid again]

First of all, you must be referring to RHSCVO. Not only is there no such thing as CHSCVO, but 6.67 is a release level for an RHS pwhex file.

Second, if you are really playing RHSCVO, you should not be seeing a lot of Soviet Sub activity UNLESS you managed to activate the Russians. This is a Russian passive scenario - as is RHSRPO. In all the other scenarios of RHS, the problem you describe will occur IF you let the AI control the Allies. But in a Russian passive scenario - I don't think anything moves.

Third, since WITP of all flavors (stock, CHS, RHS and all mods) cannot be properly played with the AI controlling the Allies, RHS makes no effort to mitigate the problems which occur if you ignore the instruction NOT to do that. RHS began as a PBEM mod, intended for head to head or PBEM with humans on both sides. Player requests modified that with respect to a single scenario (RHSEOS) - and CVO is not EOS - so once again - if you are letting AI control anything in a non EOS scenario - you are outside the instructions for RHS. This isn't something we can fix. AI is not very bright at the best of times. It isn't even properly named AI - it is not intelligent in any sense. It is hard code. This slot does this at this time - period - mostly. In the nature of things, it is possible to set up the Japanese offensive somewhat properly using such a system. It is impossible to run the Allies properly - and that is that. Yes - in scenarios where Soviet subs are active they will do lots of wierd things - if you don't have a player in control of them. But since you can NEVER have AI running the Allies anyway (if you want a reasonable game) and you can NEVER have AI running either side in CVO - it is technically outside the mod design to try otherwise.

Fourth, IRL the Soviets were NOT at war, so their subs did NOT make war patrols - and were not sinking things - or being sunk. Exception: Two subs headed for ETO from PTO ran into an I boat off Oregon, and it sank one. So that shows that IRL if a sub moved at all it was at risk - even far from Japan. The game is just showing you the same thing - it is right - and it is not a problem IMHO.

Fifth: In RHS Soviet Active Scenarios - which do not include RHSCVO - the Soviets are considered active but not belligerent. This means the Soviets can move things, build things, conduct recon, and need not be frozen if the Japanese attack without entering a certain specific hex (which in all WITP games with passive Russians is the way hard code forces things to be). BOTH sides can decide to attack the other - while in Russian passive scenarios on the Japanese get this choice. The idea is to try to make the Japanese attacking the Russians more risky. Similarly, it is to make the Japanese NOT keeping a big force in the area more risky. Certainty - which is ahistorical - is replaced with uncertainty - which is historical. Nevertheless, it is not practical for either side to contemplate a war in the North right away. As time passes, that changes: first Japan has the option, then it becomes even steven, then the USSR has the option. Further - at some point war WILL happen in the north. This isn't a question of if - it is a question of when - and who has the initiative? Giving the answer to Japan seems wrong to us. Russian passive scenarios exist only for players who disagree with this reasoning - and they should be just like stock and CHS - except you get more units. At one time Soviet subs were treated like US subs - perhaps they still are? But the changes in code re the Soviet Navy probably changed that.

[Buck Beach]

Wow did I get off to a bad start with my post by calling it CHS a major typo. It is of course RHSCVO (and me thinks you probably figured that out without my help).

The only way I have ever played any of my games is with the AI playing the Japanese and the Allied submarines. You mention and I understand that there is no way to play any form of WITP game (Stock, CHS, RHS, Nick's, BB, etc, etc) can not be played properly with either side as the AI. Since PBEM is not an option it is either don't play or don't play properly.

You know I had thought that it was the RHSCVO that you could attempt to play in the AI. My bad. Guess I have to start over and try the EOS scenario, CRAP, CRAP, CRAP.

Re-read the instructions and they are very vague as to the non-EOS scenarios not being playable. More specific is the reference is that the ESO was designed (albeit somewhat) for the human vrs Japan AI. That's it. BTW they also specifically states that in RHSCVO there are no Soviet subs. That surely appears to be in error because I am/was definitely playing the CVO and there were Red subs all over the place.

Sorry for the mass confusion I created here, I really did want to play the RHSCVO.

I love all the extras that RHS brings to the game.

[el cid again]

In the beginning, there was no Soviet Navy. Asked to create one for CHS, I naturally put it into RHS. But in those days this was "forbidden" by hard code. We cheated, called the ships French, and the ports Aussie, and it worked - if you could stand the wrong designations. Matrix relented, rewrote the code, and we got to call Soviet ships and ports Soviet.
Subs were not present in those early days - and the manual entry you read is now revised (probably - there is a third generation RHS Manual) - otherwise it should be revised. Since Matrix changed the code subs were added back in for all. But if they are misbehaving - I guess we can take them out of Russian passive scenarios.

[m10bob]

I too have had active Russkie subs in RHSCVO...always have had, and they have always been "active" (while I want them passive)..The idea of manually sitting them in port under human control is a good idea, (as is just making them come in as "reinforcements" late 1945?)
I have already reported the Japanese are actively carrying out bombing missions against Russian bases in 1941, and so far, the Russians are totally defensive, thank goodness.

RHSCVO Human vs Jap AI, all versions to date, Russian "passive"..


BTW: To date, the Russians in my games have been extending subs clear over to the northern Phillipines and south, to the Marianas.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I too have had active Russkie subs in RHSCVO...always have had, and they have always been "active" (while I want them passive)..The idea of manually sitting them in port under human control is a good idea, (as is just making them come in as "reinforcements" late 1945?)
I have already reported the Japanese are actively carrying out bombing missions against Russian bases in 1941, and so far, the Russians are totally defensive, thank goodness.

RHSCVO Human vs Jap AI, all versions to date, Russian "passive"..


BTW: To date, the Russians in my games have been extending subs clear over to the northern Phillipines and south, to the Marianas.

How far along are you in the game? Have you experienced any out of the ordinary AI actions over that in a, let's say a stock AI game? I am reluctantly starting over again in RHSEOS but would like to continue playing the CVO. I definitely like some of the changes in ESO but don't like all unhistorical weapon and equipment changes.

[davidjruss]

Buck Beach

The biggest fault with RHSEOS V 6.66 for me is that the Japanese AI will, apart from bombing PH on the first turn also then land troops on Lahaina (Maui) 2 hexes from PH . This invasion on the first turn is for me just too unrealistic , even for a game. I would like some rationale on why the AI was programmed to do this.

DavidR

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I too have had active Russkie subs in RHSCVO...always have had, and they have always been "active" (while I want them passive)..The idea of manually sitting them in port under human control is a good idea, (as is just making them come in as "reinforcements" late 1945?)

REPLY: The latter idea is problematic: one of about four problems with the entire Russian passive concept is that JAPAN gets to start the war if / when it wants to - and in that case USSR would have no subs - which were its main naval force. Not good.

I have already reported the Japanese are actively carrying out bombing missions against Russian bases in 1941, and so far, the Russians are totally defensive, thank goodness.

REPLY: Do you mean AI controlled Japanese vs PASSIVE russians? That makes little sense to me. How can that be?

RHSCVO Human vs Jap AI, all versions to date, Russian "passive"..


BTW: To date, the Russians in my games have been extending subs clear over to the northern Phillipines and south, to the Marianas.

REPLY: AI does that - it transfers bases too. The subs are supposed to be HUMAN controlled. Since you cannot have a AI controlled ALLIED team you ALWAYS have human control of the Russians - right? If humans are not behaving passively - they have de facto gone to war - and Japan should attack them.

IF you are letting AI control the Russians - you are out of bounds. I cannot change the code. AI cannot do the Allies properly. If you do - you must live with the consequences. Fact of (WITP) life.

FYI it is my opinion that code assumes there are no Soviet Subs at all - since there were none in the original design - and it acts as if they were USN - or so it seems.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I too have had active Russkie subs in RHSCVO...always have had, and they have always been "active" (while I want them passive)..The idea of manually sitting them in port under human control is a good idea, (as is just making them come in as "reinforcements" late 1945?)

REPLY: The latter idea is problematic: one of about four problems with the entire Russian passive concept is that JAPAN gets to start the war if / when it wants to - and in that case USSR would have no subs - which were its main naval force. Not good.

I have already reported the Japanese are actively carrying out bombing missions against Russian bases in 1941, and so far, the Russians are totally defensive, thank goodness.

REPLY: Do you mean AI controlled Japanese vs PASSIVE Russians? That makes little sense to me. How can that be?

RHSCVO Human vs Jap AI, all versions to date, Russian "passive"..


BTW: To date, the Russians in my games have been extending subs clear over to the northern Philippines and south, to the Marianas.

REPLY: AI does that - it transfers bases too. The subs are supposed to be HUMAN controlled. Since you cannot have a AI controlled ALLIED team you ALWAYS have human control of the Russians - right? If humans are not behaving passively - they have de facto gone to war - and Japan should attack them.

IF you are letting AI control the Russians - you are out of bounds. I cannot change the code. AI cannot do the Allies properly. If you do - you must live with the consequences. Fact of (WITP) life.

FYI it is my opinion that code assumes there are no Soviet Subs at all - since there were none in the original design - and it acts as if they were USN - or so it seems.

That works Sid and since while in port they can't be designated as Human Controlled, they should be grouped in a very large TF to avoid using up to many of our precious task force slots. This is to be able to use the Computer Controlled switch for other Allied subs.

My biggest concern is that, since I too swear that the Japanese attack Russian ports/bases, won't they squash the Sub TF sitting in Port thinking they are the other Nationality's subs.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I too have had active Russkie subs in RHSCVO...always have had, and they have always been "active" (while I want them passive)..The idea of manually sitting them in port under human control is a good idea, (as is just making them come in as "reinforcements" late 1945?)

REPLY: The latter idea is problematic: one of about four problems with the entire Russian passive concept is that JAPAN gets to start the war if / when it wants to - and in that case USSR would have no subs - which were its main naval force. Not good.

I have already reported the Japanese are actively carrying out bombing missions against Russian bases in 1941, and so far, the Russians are totally defensive, thank goodness.

REPLY: Do you mean AI controlled Japanese vs PASSIVE russians? That makes little sense to me. How can that be?

RHSCVO Human vs Jap AI, all versions to date, Russian "passive"..


BTW: To date, the Russians in my games have been extending subs clear over to the northern Phillipines and south, to the Marianas.

REPLY: AI does that - it transfers bases too. The subs are supposed to be HUMAN controlled. Since you cannot have a AI controlled ALLIED team you ALWAYS have human control of the Russians - right? If humans are not behaving passively - they have de facto gone to war - and Japan should attack them.

IF you are letting AI control the Russians - you are out of bounds. I cannot change the code. AI cannot do the Allies properly. If you do - you must live with the consequences. Fact of (WITP) life.

FYI it is my opinion that code assumes there are no Soviet Subs at all - since there were none in the original design - and it acts as if they were USN - or so it seems.

Of course!!! I have just figured it was set by nation, instead of the fact I had already given AI control over "SUBS"..DOH!

[el cid again]

The Japanese as AI should not be attacking the Russians - and in hundreds of tests I have not seen it. I set the units to "training" and if they are not reset - they will stay training. I don't set recon planes to training, and they DO fly over the USSR. Which I think is semi-kosher.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The Japanese as AI should not be attacking the Russians - and in hundreds of tests I have not seen it. I set the units to "training" and if they are not reset - they will stay training. I don't set recon planes to training, and they DO fly over the USSR. Which I think is semi-kosher.

Don't you consider Japanese bombers escorted by fighters, making bombing missions on Russia "attacks"?? My Jap AI are doing this in December '41..............As reported, so far the Russians are purely defensive with planes/LCU's....

[el cid again]

Since only EOS is designed for AI controlled Japanese, is it reasonable to assume you are talking about EOS? If so, what level? [If not, I don't attempt to influence AI in scenarios made before we tried to influence it.] Northern Area and Kwangtung Area bombers (and fighter) units should be set to training. If you have any that are not - identify them please.

[m10bob]

No Sid...RHSCVO...Version 6.xxx..Russian paasive(and they are), but the Jap air boys are bombing about once a week..Maybe Uncle Joe is too concerned about his other front to be concerned??

[el cid again]

Before you start, manually set all Japanese air units (except recon or transport) in the North to training. Then turn AI loose. See how it works. If that fails, date set the subs to about June 1945. If Japan attacks - too bad for the USSR in that case - no subs will fight.

But since the mod you are playing is NOT intended for AI control - it is not a factor in the mod setup if it cannot do so properly.

I am working on the Russians a bit - in the next release more air units will be training. Seems if you set "none" as mission AI is more likely to change that to attack. Thinking about subs in the two passive scenarios. Maybe we date set them? People playing passive already have accepted the principle that the USSR is to be imatiated if Japan attacks. I cannot do that - so these passive mods are not for me. So it does not matter to me how unrealistic it is - if people think the stock/CHS way is better - they can have RHS stuff in the passive scenarios set up the same way as an option.

[m10bob]

Thank you...Excellent mod!!