HEAT ammo out of whack!?

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Svennemir
......About the KV-2: I read ( www.panzerlexikon.de ) that the blast of the HE shell could tear turrets off German tanks. Perhaps the SU-152 "Svierboi" worked in the same way? Right now it has AP rounds in the game.... pen=165.

That's a great site. Thanks! Though my German is very limited. Impressive legal disclaimer too. LOL

[Charles2222]

Goblin:

I was disappointed with the Sturmtiger also. How about the KV-2?
Designed as a "tank buster" (quote from its description in the game encyclopedia), it doesn't get any HEAT rnds (the Soviets didn't have 'em at the time), and has NO Armor Piercing rnds. Not much of a tank buster.

Hmm, I've never thoght of the KV2 as a tank-buster, though with the period of it's deployment, if it could hit anything, it's HE was VERY good. Funny I never thougth of the SU152 as tank-buster too, but look at it's description and supposedly it was too. If what I suspect is true, the USSR tank-destroyers aren't described as being designed for tank-busting (though you'd think the SU100 was) and yet so many of the assault guns are, such as the SU152 and what might be described as assault gun in the KV2. I'll also bet the commentary on the Sturmtiger has no mention of it being a tank-buster, and given the penetration rating it's no wonder. So you can see that encyclopedic claims of something being designed as a tank-buster don't exactly convince me.

[mogami]

Greetings, In one of my long WW2 campaigns I have running currently I am playing the Soviets. In the first battle my core force of 4 companies of T-34m41 with 4 companies of conscript infantry riders was assigned to advance to contact (meeting engagement). Since I never employ KV-2 I had no problem with HE destroying my tanks. (Sig33 SP infantry guns destroyed several and german 81mm mortars took out 2). There was a prior debate concerning HE mortar rounds killing tanks, where I was in favor of it being possible. Also some earlier threads resulted in arty in general being reduced in effectiveness. (although I still believe we should model the game as close to actual effects as possible I submit to some things should be a result of what the general concensus among players desire) Since I first read the comments here I have been trying to kill German tanks with KV-2's so far without success. But german 81mm mortars still kill T-34's in both indirect and direct fire modes. using HE ammo.
So I asked my self Is the 49 pen for a 152mm correct? or was it supposed to actually be 149? While looking at data for various weapons I got myself extermly confused.

German
75mm FH 92pen
10.5cm FH 74pen
15cm FH 52pen
21cm 51 pen

Soviet
152mm gun on KV-2 49pen
152mm off board 165pen
203mm How 46pen
122mm FH 94pen

version 7.1

[Charles2222]

Mogami: What makes it even more confusing is that some of those ratings you quoted I'd venture to guess were actually AP rounds, such as I guess is the case with the GE 75FH. From my experience with mortars, perhaps their penetration is just about right. I hardly ever get my tanks wasted, and if they were hitting the top I'd certainly see where their being damaged is because the top isn't strong enough (also their hits aren't so annoying when the tanks, over time, get higher survivability ratings). Later in the war, some tanks have stronger tops and you should see the minimal irritance of the 81/82mm mortar lapse. It's just the early stuff and lighter ones that have to worry. I think any 120mm or larger has a good chance of even wasting the KTiger types.

I know I'd feel relatively helpless if I had some big expensive tanks and then I found the enemy had been firing large bombardment rounds and there was no smoke traces of their fire on the board. One good thing about big tanks becoming targets, is if you use them very skillfully, you can lure the enemy into chasing a unit which it can practically never hit, therefore saving the infantry from assured retreats/destruction, which can't run from it with any manner of skill (unless there's some HTs nearby for just such an emergency). I'm currently going through my head where it seems that sometimes the best defense to a heavy bombardment, is to be ready at all times to manuever the targets of it around, so that all those points spent on artillery would be largely wasted. One has to debate whether the losses incurred from not moving from good defensive stances is worth the losses of bombardment. I'm thinking a mixture of moving some things, while others stay, is probably the best overall strategy. Keep those Tigers and Panthers moving. Let the PZIVHs and SGIIIGs soak it up for armor that might have to remain at it's post.

[Steve Wilcox]

"The KV-2 was intended as a heavy breakthrough tank, to help penetrate enemy defences reinforced with bunkers. The modified M-10 Model 1938/40 howitzer could fire a 52kg projectile at 436m/sec that was capable of penetrating 72mm of steel armour at 1500m. There was also a special 40kg concrete penetrating round for attacking pillboxes."
From Osprey's New Vanguard #17 KV-1 & 2. IOW, it's a bunker buster, not a tank buster, although it could ruin a tank crew's day.

[Paul Vebber]

FYI, the pen ratings listed for both HE and HEAT are "nominal". Unlike AP, the actual effect you will obtain can vary signicantly.

Heat and HE rounds have a 10% "tumble rate" 10% of all rounds result in only 10% of the "normal" armor penetration effect (representing deflection of the round).

HE rounds penetration is a function mostly of its pen rating, but has a velocity componant as well so at close range you can routinely get pens a fair bit higher than the OOB rating. Thee is a random componant as well that varies between 80 and 105% of the given pen after modification. HE pen values are based on a shock damage table that relates general size of round to its damage potential. Since HE does not work by "penetration" but by shock the whole SP notion of "HE pen" is a poor model, but its what he have to work with.

NOte the table provided a few posts back mixes HE and AP pen values. they are not comparable.

Note that many large caliber HE weapons (like the Sturm Tiger) had *ZERO* capability to target a vehical in game terms. I believe there is only one recorded occasion of a Sturm Tiger affecting tanks where a round happend fall at random between two Shermans parked close together that were tipped over and completely wrecked. So some HE weps are down graded to prevent their use by players in a totally ahistoric roles. These were bombarment weapons meant to reduce bunkers and strongpoints, NOT to take on vehicals.

HEAT rounds are even more variable and cary randomly from .67 to 110% of their rated pen.

HE rounds are applied against the raw armor thickness and has twice the rate of 'vulnerable location" hits than other round types.

HEAT rounds are applied against the strict geometric thickness of the sloped armor, with no correction ofr ballistic effects on regular AP projectiles. Again their resulting penetration is highly variable. You can see the effect in the ALt-L combat.txt log. They have 1.33 times more "vulnerable loaction" hits than straight HE, but are greatly affected by skirts (which can also represent sandbags and other "stuff").

I reran the unit prices trought the point spread sheet to account for the effects of the armor modifiers. The point vlaues are consistently scored, and the SFH is available on the downloads page for those that want to try to improve the point scores. I did not have teh 2 weeks I spent the last time trying to tweak it to get things to "come out nice". I just stuck with the raw numbers in 90% of cases. But no matter what you do its impossible to capture the effecticenees of a unit in a single number.

Players who buy "best bang for the buck" forces will see non-historical results, becasue they are buying non-historical forces. The point values assume you are buying at least "semi-historical" forces. If you don't then you shouldn't be surprised if you have non-historical results!

[Goblin]

Thanks Paul! Very informative. Good enough for me.

Goblin

[Charles2222]

Paul Vebber: Let's assume the maximum fort rating for armor is 200. Maybe it's 300, but let's just say 200. Given the SturmTiger rating of 108 HE, alongside size 21 shell, will it "ever" penetrate such a fort hit when clearly it should, given current SPWAW limits? I ask, because while it's use against tanks may had been nil, clearly hitting an object that couldn't move didn't prove to be an obstacle.

BTW, what would you say the 'top' rating on forts are? Is it usually the lowest rating that is shown for the other portions? I don't recall ever seeing ratings for the tops. Thanks.

[Svennemir]

Wow, that was interesting reading Paul! Once again I'm surprised about the number of factors accounted for in SPWAW.

I'm off to download the SFH!

[Paul Vebber]

Every fort has a "front turret" armor that is no more than about 100mm, the SturmTigers HE pen is 108 so if it hits in the top or front turret, then it will have a good chance to penetrate. The best Soviet front turret on a fort is 76 I believe, so hit it in the "front turret" and it will penetrate. Given the real world accuracy of these things just getting it routinely land in the hex you want is better than a real world commander would generally get. The game rate of fire is MUCH greater than real life too.

[Arralen]

HEAT
Heat doesn't have a reduced range in SPWAW as APCR does.
PenHEAT values are correct.

Support tanks
Number of HEAT rounds is fairly low, so better do not waist any. Tank-hunting isn't advisable with tanks/SPguns which don't have AP ammo but HEAT only.
Play with all realism settings ON, and you'll find yourself with 2..4 rounds of HEAT mostly


KV-2
Text is plaing wrong - portraited in the game is the KV-2, a bunker/MG-nest-buster which was at first equipped with 122, than with 152mm L/20 how (short-barrel) gun.
As the huge turret was traversed by hand, turning it was only possible on level ground.

PenHE
Don't confuse Arty Shells with Tank Shells - those field guns fire shells with a much higher muzzle velocity and much sturdier casing than those shells fired from the short-barreled tank guns.
There are some exceptions, though - the (I)SU-152 mounted real arty pieces (122 L/43; 152.4L/32) ; check out
http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ww2-equipm ... -su152.htm
However, AP was still used against (heavy) tanks...

Stefan

[White Phosphorus]

How low does the rate of fire go?

[Charles2222]

Paul Vebber:

Every fort has a "front turret" armor that is no more than about 100mm, the SturmTigers HE pen is 108 so if it hits in the top or front turret, then it will have a good chance to penetrate. The best Soviet front turret on a fort is 76 I believe, so hit it in the "front turret" and it will penetrate. Given the real world accuracy of these things just getting it routinely land in the hex you want is better than a real world commander would generally get. The game rate of fire is MUCH greater than real life too.

I see your point, that it least can get the USSR ones, but there's more than USSR ones to destroy. In any case, perhaps your estimate that of 76 is a good one in reference to the FT of any nation.

Couldn't this gun fire direct? Pathetically, maybe, such as the talk we used to hear of firing mortars and hitting tanks with them, but still, it could and was done I'd imagine, particularly when we're talking about using them on forts (but then maybe bombarding was more used).

Part of my point has turned out not to be that the Sturmtiger isn't modeled very well for fort-busting, but that indeed that may be true for all fort-busters. So their true penetration and still have them able to fire direct and not target AFVs, directly? Note one thing about the Sturmtiger, hitting a fort with bombardment may not be accurate enough for ti to hit anything as reliably as it could probably direct. Note also that the FT armor of a fort isn't that relevant for fort-busters, particularly for this machine, because with that much punch why would you risk getting shot at by the opposing fort? Instead, you would engage it at what would likely be a stronger point, but that couldn't fire back, but when that stronger point is not going to stop something that goes up to 8ft. thick of reinforced concrete, what does it matter?

Another thing to consider particularly of the case for an assault gun like the Sturmtiger, and that is that it's shells had to be craned-loaded by the crew. So, if you're going through all that trouble (and yes whatever the fire rate is, it's probably too high), would you really engage a fort from the front (assuming we're talking using it via direct-fire)?

In any case, maybe even CL will provide no answers for the assault guns that can't hit the broad side of a KV2, but should be able to have the highest rated penetration of any unit, so that it could actually destroy any thing it could hit such as forts from any facing. Maybe there's no way to program it, but maybe there should be some way to prohibit certain units from direct-firing on certain other units, in this case some assault guns from targeting any AFVs, even if said AFV is immobilized, but would allow it the full potential of it's penetration on forts. From what I understand from achtungpanzer, it could "demolish" any building with one shot, not just 'penetrate' it. It's too bad if it's fire rate can't be fixed for CL, but of course that's not the main angle I'm driving. I think you can understand, if nothing else, how outlandishly silly it looks to have the shell that AFV-wise is probably the highest rated for penetration, and yet mere PZIVHs and Shermans outpenetrate it.

Thanks for your time.

[Bernie]

Originally posted by Charles_22
I'll also bet the commentary on the Sturmtiger has no mention of it being a tank-buster, and given the penetration rating it's no wonder. So you can see that encyclopedic claims of something being designed as a tank-buster don't exactly convince me.

If you look it up you might be surprised to find out that the SturmTiger was actually a mortar.

[mogami]

With the exception of the KV-2 gun pen listed the others are all off board arty. So I assumed the pen ratings to all be HE. Does OB arty list AP pen ratings? (how else could the list be mixed)
a german 75mm FH lists a higher pen then a Soviet 203mm How (and a German 21cm FH) It still confuses me. Where should I look for the right numbers?

[Charles2222]

Bernie:

If you look it up you might be surprised to find out that the SturmTiger was actually a mortar.

Yes, I knew that. As long as they fired it direct, and it doesn't perform on the very thing it was designed to work on, forts, it doesn't change it being incorrect.

Paul Vebber: Consider another angle on this if you would. Consider the AFV-mounted flamethrower. Here we have an assault weapon, something that was probably pretty useless for hitting a moving AFV, and yet it has a shell size of 20 (close) and has almost double the Sturmtiger HE rating by having a 200 penetration and somehow it's being rated so high for penetration isn't considered to be something that can be abused. I know we have our flamthrower enthusiasts out here, but really, why's it so different from the Sturmtiger that it can bust any fort, from any angle, I suppose, with a 200 rating, and yet the Sturmtiger has to look shabby? The only difference I can see is that if the Sturmtiger is treated as it was capable of hitting, it might be deemed 'unfair' by certain persons, while flamethrowers on AFVs are pretty common to all major nations. I know as SPWAW presently stands it can be terribly abused, but then the tales of the abuse of flamthrowers have been legendary. I'll probably never pick a Sturmtiger, but for the sake of accuracy if nothing else, I hope to see in CL, where I suppose prices could go through the roof, that at least though Sturmy may be through the roof in price, it won't be watered down in potency. Thanks again.

[Bernie]

Originally posted by Charles_22
Bernie:

Yes, I knew that. As long as they fired it direct, and it doesn't perform on the very thing it was designed to work on, forts, it doesn't change it being incorrect.

Paul Vebber: Consider another angle on this if you would. Consider the AFV-mounted flamethrower. Here we have an assault weapon, something that was probably pretty useless for hitting a moving AFV, and yet it has a shell size of 20 (close) and has almost double the Sturmtiger HE rating by having a 200 penetration and somehow it's being rated so high for penetration isn't considered to be something that can be abused. I know we have our flamthrower enthusiasts out here, but really, why's it so different from the Sturmtiger that it can bust any fort, from any angle, I suppose, with a 200 rating, and yet the Sturmtiger has to look shabby? The only difference I can see is that if the Sturmtiger is treated as it was capable of hitting, it might be deemed 'unfair' by certain persons, while flamethrowers on AFVs are pretty common to all major nations. I know as SPWAW presently stands it can be terribly abused, but then the tales of the abuse of flamthrowers have been legendary. I'll probably never pick a Sturmtiger, but for the sake of accuracy if nothing else, I hope to see in CL, where I suppose prices could go through the roof, that at least though Sturmy may be through the roof in price, it won't be watered down in potency. Thanks again.

Flamethrowers are nice, but strictly short range. The SturmTiger on the other hand has considerable range and seem more than adaquate for their purpose in the game. They do a very fine job "bunker busting", I've even gotten some lucky hits on immobilized AFV's with them, but by far they excell most for infantry busting. A single hit in a cluster of troops will kill out to three hexes in some cases. Great "cleanup" tools for all those crewmen left wandering around after your Tigers have wiped out a mess of AFV's.

[john g]

Originally posted by Bernie


Flamethrowers are nice, but strictly short range. The SturmTiger on the other hand has considerable range and seem more than adaquate for their purpose in the game. They do a very fine job "bunker busting", I've even gotten some lucky hits on immobilized AFV's with them, but by far they excell most for infantry busting. A single hit in a cluster of troops will kill out to three hexes in some cases. Great "cleanup" tools for all those crewmen left wandering around after your Tigers have wiped out a mess of AFV's.

When I ran a WWII campaign for the Germans, that was my use for the Sturms as well, I never used it to bust forts or shoot at vehicles, it was fired strictly at infantry concentrations, it gave a nice ripple effect as it affected each hex in turn. The Anzac daisycutter does a similar job but you only get one shot per aircraft.

Now that the SFH is out to the public, people can modify units to their hearts content and get semi official point values for the new units.

If someone is playing with unlimited ammo instead of reduced ammo, try changing ammo loadouts to 255 in the sfh and see what that does to the unit's point value. It will probobly peg everything out at 255 points.

A unit of late war Tiger 1e that stumbles upon a unit of Churchill VIII with 95/22 loading heat will almost certainly die, but that is the nature of the game, for every super weapon there is a proper counter to it. The CS tanks have 1 or 2 turns of ammo to kill those Tigers if playing reduced, if not they better get out of there quickly.
thanks, John.

[Charles2222]

Bernie:

They do a very fine job "bunker busting", I've even gotten some lucky hits on immobilized AFV's with them, but by far they excell most for infantry busting.

Fine job? They can't bust anything above 108 armor, when clearly they easily could, while other things like flamers aren't like restricted? I've never doubted any anti-personnel ability it may possess. The Germans develope something more bunker-busting advanced than the flamethrower, and then it's less penetrating for the very purpose it was designed? It's almost like saying that a T34 should be happy it can penetrate the PZIB from the rear, if the PZIB were grotesquely armored elsewhere.

BTW, the Jagdtiger might want to be looked at. I always thought the Panther or KTiger guns were supposed to be the most accurate GE guns, but it turns out the KTiger is 29, while the Jagdtiger is 33. Seems I've always seen the 128L55 a less accurate then the 88L71, which, as is, is approximately 12% more accurate.

As always, all this discussion isn't meant strictly for SPWAW, but CL as well, and another thing, yes, I can change the OOBs, I have no problem with upping Strumtiger penetration or downing Jagdtiger accuracy, but part of the idea is not only to correct things sooner or later down the line, but to get feedback so that I'd have a better idea of what I should change it to myself.