The Great Liners as Troopers

[el cid again]

Researching the Queen's (Mary and Elizabeth) I found the following ships all in service of RN when PTO erupted into war - and all of them in PTO (at least operating between it and the USA):

Queen Elizabeth
Queen Mary
Mauritania
Aquitania (ii)
Niew Amsterdam
Ile de France

Until "early summer" 1942 they served in the Indian Ocean routes - but after that the first two moved to the North Atlantic run. On that run Queen Mary averaged 15,000 troops per passage. Refitted for trooping, Queen Elizabeth could carry 16,000 - only half could sleep at one time !! Aquitania had a troop capacity of 7724 troops. Niew Amsterdam AVERAGED 8599 in 44 voyages of an average of 12,056 nautical miles! [Don't know her limiting capacity]
Mauritania had 2 six inch guns, 3 12 pounders, 3 40mm and 22 20mm.

QM = 29 knots
QE = 28.5 knots
Mauritania = 25 knots
NA = 20.5 knots
A = 23 knots

No data on Ile de France. EDIT: 24 knots, 1586 civil passenger capacity ( = nominally 4758 troops if they don't double shift). British service throughout WWII - she made two voyages even before converting to a proper troopship.

The problem with these ships in the game is they are not always "on the map." In RHS Level 7 they can be present as the US East coast is on the map (if we get it to work - busted just now). But we cannot withdraw the Queens in 1942 - as with all ships in WITP - they enter - they stay.

[m10bob]

Anyway to alter the Brit requirement to withdraw ships?..If so, might make them Brit ships for the computer??[&:]

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Researching the Queen's (Mary and Elizabeth) I found the following ships all in service of RN when PTO erupted into war - and all of them in PTO (at least operating between it and the USA):

Queen Elizabeth
Queen Mary
Mauritania
Aquitania (ii)
Niew Amsterdam
Ile de France

Until "early summer" 1942 they served in the Indian Ocean routes - but after that the first two moved to the North Atlantic run. On that run Queen Mary averaged 15,000 troops per passage. Refitted for trooping, Queen Elizabeth could carry 16,000 - only half could sleep at one time !! Aquitania had a troop capacity of 7724 troops. Niew Amsterdam AVERAGED 8599 in 44 voyages of an average of 12,056 nautical miles! [Don't know her limiting capacity]
Mauritania had 2 six inch guns, 3 12 pounders, 3 40mm and 22 20mm.

QM = 29 knots
QE = 28.5 knots
Mauritania = 25 knots
NA = 20.5 knots
A = 23 knots

No data on Ile de France.

The problem with these ships in the game is they are not always "on the map." In RHS Level 7 they can be present as the US East coast is on the map (if we get it to work - busted just now). But we cannot withdraw the Queens in 1942 - as with all ships in WITP - they enter - they stay.

actually Nieuw Amsterdam
Captain J.J. Bijl (May 10th 1940 - November 1942)
Gezagvoerder G.J. Barendse (from November 1942), promoted to Commander April 1st, 1944

36.287 tons
Shipowners: Nederlandsche-Amerikaansche Stoomvaart Maatschappij (Holland-Amerika Lijn)
20.5 knots
556 cabin class
455 tourist class
309 third class

docked in Singapore on September 9th, 1940.
1933 bunks
2159 hammocks

Armament
- one 15cm gun
- one 7.5cm AA gun
- four AAMG were added
commissioned December 24th, 1940

area of action:
east of Capetown
west of Singapore
Australia
New Zealand
Dutch East Indies

mostly Durban - Suez until January 19th, 1943
capacity in 1943: 6269

docked in Fremantle, February 18th, 1943
docked in San Francisco, March 22nd, 1943
capacity: 6700
armament: 27 guns/AAMG
docked in Wellington, Fremantle, Colombo, Suez
October 1943, docked in San Francisco, Capacity now 8065

1944/1945 Halifax/New York - England

Ile de France
43.450 tons
Shipowners: Compagnie Generale Transatlantique (French Line)
23.0 knots
670 cabin class
408 tourist class
508 third class

Sources:
The World's Merchant Fleets 1939 by Roger Jordan
Geschiedenis van de Nederlandse Koopvaardij in de Tweede Wereldoorlog by K.W.L. Bezemer

[Halsey]

The main reason these weren't included in the game was because they're not able to be withdrawn.
They only carry personel, not heavy equipment.

If you include them the Allied player will use them as APA's, which they weren't.[;)]

The Aquitania was included as a tradeoff.
It's available for the duration.

It being available for the duration would equate into the total trips made by all the others.
A tradeoff, as it were.[;)]

[el cid again]

They all served as RN ships - so that is fine. What I wonder is how do withdrawal ships get set? Slots? Maybe we can do this? Some of them seem not to have done the Atlantic run - it was the Queens that left the Indian Ocean in mid 1942. We also could give players half of them or something like that.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

The main reason these weren't included in the game was because they're not able to be withdrawn.
They only carry personel, not heavy equipment.

If you include them the Allied player will use them as APA's, which they weren't.[;)]

The Aquitania was included as a tradeoff.
It's available for the duration.

It being available for the duration would equate into the total trips made by all the others.
A tradeoff, as it were.[;)]

But is isn't. The Aquitania, and three others, MAINLY served in the Indian Ocean area. I bet it would take 4 ships on the map to = the load time historically spent. And having them all in the early part of PTO matters - later it doesn't mean much at all.

As for APA/AP - don't ask why these are not different kinds of ships - we could have a house rule. It should apply to an Italian ship in the Far East and some Japanese liners as well.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Halsey

The main reason these weren't included in the game was because they're not able to be withdrawn.
They only carry personel, not heavy equipment.

If you include them the Allied player will use them as APA's, which they weren't.[;)]

The Aquitania was included as a tradeoff.
It's available for the duration.

It being available for the duration would equate into the total trips made by all the others.
A tradeoff, as it were.[;)]

But is isn't. The Aquitania, and three others, MAINLY served in the Indian Ocean area. I bet it would take 4 ships on the map to = the load time historically spent. And having them all in the early part of PTO matters - later it doesn't mean much at all.

As for APA/AP - don't ask why these are not different kinds of ships - we could have a house rule. It should apply to an Italian ship in the Far East and some Japanese liners as well.

Sid knows ALL of the early AP's were ex-civilain passenger liners, the "President series", and the Wakefield/ West Point.
At one time, the SS Manhattan (Wakefield) was the record holding speed champ of all ocean liners. A dip in passenger service during the depression saw some fine ships leased to governments.

[Halsey]

This I know.

This issue was brought up by myself a long time ago.
Mr Frag shot it down.[;)]

It would take houserules to stop their use as APA's.

I don't use them that way, but I've seen others do it.[;)]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

This I know.

This issue was brought up by myself a long time ago.
Mr Frag shot it down.[;)]

It would take houserules to stop their use as APA's.

I don't use them that way, but I've seen others do it.[;)]

Too bad there is not a way to limit ships to ports by their size, (as with 4 engine bombers to bases?)
But then even Camranh Bay was a mudhole, once....

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: m10bob
But then even Camranh Bay was a mudhole, once....

And still is, bro.

A lot of merchant shipping is invisible in this game, so I think that a certain amount of omission of historically-used vessels is permissible on that basis.

For example, much troop and materiel movement went through the Panama Canal, and no reflection of the shipping required for this appears in the game. The Japanese coastal merchant marine is totally unrepresented (sorry, Brady, but I think this to be a very good thing).

The more you dick around with what's available, the more you screw up the game. I hate to say this, but I am totally dissatisfied with every mod that has surfaced like a burning sub precisely for this reason.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Sid knows ALL of the early AP's were ex-civilain passenger liners, the "President series", and the Wakefield/ West Point.
At one time, the SS Manhattan (Wakefield) was the record holding speed champ of all ocean liners. A dip in passenger service during the depression saw some fine ships leased to governments.

[/quote]

In the sense of not being built as purpous amphibs - this is true. The first amphibious ship in the world was the Shinshu Maru of IJN in the mid 1930s. But as an APA sailor I must say that what matters is not the original purpose of the ship. A design to purpose APA is not an ocean liner - and cannot be converted into one. An ocean liner, on the other hand, can be converted into a fine APA PROVIDED it is not too big. If it is too big - there is no point - and it is not going to be a good APA. There are two issues:

1) the height of the main deck from the waterline; if it is too great the troops cannot efficiently or safely load; if it is way too big it is not even possible [real soldiers may have to heft 130 to 160 pounds of gear - not just themselves - here I quoted the gear of a USMC radioman];

2) the risk factor; you do not wisely put too many eggs in one basket if the basket is supposed to approach a hostile shore; you want more packages;

The first APAs were converted liners, but not big ones. No big liner was ever made an APA. And the last APAs - made in the mid 50s (on which I sailed) were too big- wartime lessons were lost and we had to relearn why not to make them too big

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

This I know.

This issue was brought up by myself a long time ago.
Mr Frag shot it down.[;)]

It would take houserules to stop their use as APA's.

I don't use them that way, but I've seen others do it.[;)]

Here there is a self generated penalty: IF they "cheat" (or are ignorant) and misuse a big AP as an APA,
THEN they will lose too much when they lose the ship. I don't much care either way if someone does it - I love to sink big ships with valuable units on them.

[m10bob]

If included, Cobra has already got EXCELLENT pics done up!!(I was convinced a long time ago, if we are discussing something in these threads, that crafty elf in Geelong is drawing away!!!)

[Halsey]

If their VP level was as much as an Essex class CV, it would deter their usage as APA's.

Can these be adjusted without disrupting their stats?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

If their VP level was as much as an Essex class CV, it would deter their usage as APA's.

Can these be adjusted without disrupting their stats?

Great idea!!..Make it too darned expensive to intentionally put at risk! Maybe 500-1000 points per!!.(It would give the enemy a reason to seek them out as well..)

[el cid again]

It can be done - somewhat realistically too - because they are so hard to sink - and durability = vp! I like it.

[el cid again]

Cobra has done Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth, Mauritania and Ile de France art - so we have our four ships if we want em.

[Halsey]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: Halsey

If their VP level was as much as an Essex class CV, it would deter their usage as APA's.

Can these be adjusted without disrupting their stats?

Great idea!!..Make it too darned expensive to intentionally put at risk! Maybe 500-1000 points per!!.(It would give the enemy a reason to seek them out as well..)

[:)]

I prefer simple solutions.[;)]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: Halsey

If their VP level was as much as an Essex class CV, it would deter their usage as APA's.

Can these be adjusted without disrupting their stats?

Great idea!!..Make it too darned expensive to intentionally put at risk! Maybe 500-1000 points per!!.(It would give the enemy a reason to seek them out as well..)

[:)]

I prefer simple solutions.[;)]

That is from falling off of things at Darby Queen.[;)]

[m10bob]

There is great justification for re-evaluating the VP of all AP's in the U.S. inventory, from maybe AP 1 to AP 23..These (IIRC) were the original ex-civilain luxury liners leased by the goverment during the hard times of the depression.
These ships had the ability to carry a higher number of troops at a higher speed, for a longer distance.

The Wakefield (in CHS and RHS) for instance carried approx half of the Brit 18th UK division to theatre, as it did the 2nd USMC division to New Zealand.
Had either of these runs been intercepted by the enemy, the losses would have been horrendous.

In 1943, the Indian registry AP Rhona was sunk in the Med by a German guided missile, and the losses of 1149 U.S. service personell were kept a secret to prevent the Germans from knowing how well their missile worked, but also to prevent a public furor over so many losses in one sinking!.
The victim governments of that sinking all agreed to keep it a secret.
If so many lives could be lost, (and swept under a carpet of secrecy on an insignificant and unknown ship as the Rhona), it takes no imagination to see the foolishness of using those earlier AP's in an Amphib/Attack role.
IMHO anybody who is willing to risk them as such, should have to pay for that call.[:-]


Follow the link to Auxillery ships" and see approx AP 1 to AP 23:

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/auxil/



BTW, If you go to landing craft, you will see many versions of the LCI were converted to other than LCI(G)'s,,There were even flak models (LCF)!