Ideas for Submarine Chariots for Harbour attack?

[Mike Scholl]

What about forgetting the whole thing?  In the Pacific War, Midgets and Kaitens and all the rest were statistically ineffective in the overall picture.   You want to fix something..., figure out how to make Land Combat work....

[Dili]

I was thinking more like a big cannon and no bombs if you go this route.

 
Yeah like you said ROF is the problem. But if that works it's a good way to escape CAP.
 

The first problem is you are trying to build a general case from too small a data set.

 
How so!? Isnt an Fighter ace after 5 kills? Dont we rate ships Commanders with much less than 10 combat missions?
 

The second problem is that you are using a set of data where the planning staffs did the hard part for you - probably. Their success rate implies competence - not accident. That implies they knew where their tactical methods had a good chance of success.

 
Thanks for La Palisse... That's why they would be elite   "Elite pilot per floatplane". If you want to tweak the abilities of the attack you just neeed to drop the quality of the "floatplane" crew. Instead of 99 put 40 and the ability to hit anything drops.
 

What about forgetting the whole thing?  In the Pacific War, Midgets and Kaitens and all the rest were statistically ineffective in the overall picture.   You want to fix something..., figure out how to make Land Combat work....

 
This is mainly for WITM but Pacific can take the idea.
 
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The advantage of idea:
 
Mother submarine - Means that if British are successful in open sea or are just lucky in ASW can for example down a submarine with 3 or in case of submarine Iride  with 4 maiale "floatplanes" a big hit.
                          
It separates the various parts of the attack operation:
The mother submarine can stay 50 miles(2 hexes)  from objective and escape or not.
Maiale"Floatplane" -  all, some or none maiale can escape and return to mother sub.
 
 
 

[JeffroK]

Can we create a Folboat unit to recreate the raid on Singapore (Jaywick) & the XBoat (Sleeping Beauties) attacks on Singapore & the underwater cables in the Gulf of Siam....

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

What about forgetting the whole thing?  In the Pacific War, Midgets and Kaitens and all the rest were statistically ineffective in the overall picture.   You want to fix something..., figure out how to make Land Combat work....

This is a different thread - so it is inappropriate to go OT and denegrate the idea. I have worked on land combat - and I have suggested a mechanism that could be implemented which makes same hex combat work far better. Same hex combat systems are unusual - but for this scale actually superior to adjacent hex combat systems (provided they work). As modders, we are limited in what we can do: we can mess with device values and OB structures mainly. This I have attempted to do already - and we may be able to do a better job as time permits us to calibrate (measure) the effects. But the real solution lies in changing the codes for retreat (and similarly for advance). If done properly, it becomes difficult to "ignore a line" and more or less walk right through it. Other potential changes are possible in the algorithms which determine combat values and which resolve them, but we cannot help much with such changes in the context of not having the opportunity to see them. I think it is far more useful to work on what we can than to complain about what we cannot do.

[kokubokan25]

Well, i try to get the Maiale project out using the mine engine.
The result was 50% good, 50% bad.

My steps:

1-Create a new DEVICE named Maiale midget sub in slot 119. All dates like the P200 mine artifact but with a accuracy of 12 and effect of 3.000.
2-Create a new modified sub class named Scire to carry a mine dispenser with that weapon. The Sub can carry 250 Maiale. This is wrong, of course, only three Maiale was carried but is to get more chance to success and allow the weapon stay on the objective more than a couple of days.
3-Create only a Sub named Scire and based at Taranto.
4-This new weapon is not produced and only this submarine can do this attack. The axis side get only one chance to hit harder the enemy with this weapon because when the scen stars, the SS Scire had the 250 maiale aboard.

RUN THE GAME

5-Choose two targets; Alexandría and Tobruk.
6-SS Scire spent 5 days to position the trap in Alexandria. However, like someone pointed, it's not possible mine a port with level 10 and in spite of the screen show me a MINE icon in the Alex hex, any ship detected or hit the Maiale.

7-In Tobruk the idea works. See jpeg below.


CONCLUSIONS

-My idea only works in small ports. This is only a aproach to problem but seems the mine idea not works propely. Sad.

[Dili]

Got an idea to escape the CAP: Force the Maiale "floatplane" to only work at night. House rule and make it only good enough to escape night fighters, an attack at day light CAP would be suicidal.
 
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Very good fremen only with experimentation we can go there. Btw how do you set up units to use the game for testing like that?
 
I already edited slot 034 for a Floatplane called SLC "Maiale" Max speed: 400 cruise: 350 endurance:120(do i need to duplicate range?); Max load 500; To be tweaked durability of 40; armor 2; Maneuvre:60.  
 
25 in pool tough i would like 12 in pool and a production of say 0,5 month but i am not sure i can put that kind of values.
Weapon: Maiale Time Bomb number:1 Facing: External
 
 
slot 197 for "Maiale Time Bomb" let stay the data for Ohka 1300mm penetration;  1700 effect; no range;  Load cost 500;

[qgaliana]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Got an idea to escape the CAP: Force the Maiale "floatplane" to only work at night. House rule and make it only good enough to escape night fighters, an attack at day light CAP would be suicidal.

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Very good fremen only with experimentation we can go there. Btw how do you set up units to use the game for testing like that?

I already edited slot 034 for a Floatplane called SLC "Maiale" Max speed: 400 cruise: 350 endurance:120(do i need to duplicate range?); Max load 500; To be tweaked durability of 40; armor 2; Maneuvre:60.  

25 in pool tough i would like 12 in pool and a production of say 0,5 month but i am not sure i can put that kind of values.
Weapon: Maiale Time Bomb number:1 Facing: External


slot 197 for "Maiale Time Bomb" let stay the data for Ohka 1300mm penetration;  1700 effect; no range;  Load cost 500;

If your attack device is a bomb, what altitude do you expect to give the float planes? And why so fast and durable? Something needs to be able to stop it, and since we can't simulate port security on patrol or anti sub countermeasures it should at least have some vulnerability to AA.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Got an idea to escape the CAP: Force the Maiale "floatplane" to only work at night. House rule and make it only good enough to escape night fighters, an attack at day light CAP would be suicidal.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very good fremen only with experimentation we can go there. Btw how do you set up units to use the game for testing like that?

I already edited slot 034 for a Floatplane called SLC "Maiale" Max speed: 400 cruise: 350 endurance:120(do i need to duplicate range?); Max load 500; To be tweaked durability of 40; armor 2; Maneuvre:60.  

25 in pool tough i would like 12 in pool and a production of say 0,5 month but i am not sure i can put that kind of values.
Weapon: Maiale Time Bomb number:1 Facing: External


slot 197 for "Maiale Time Bomb" let stay the data for Ohka 1300mm penetration;  1700 effect; no range;  Load cost 500;

I think missiles may be better - give them the real range and speed and warhead of your weapon - which is sort of an "underwater missile." However, if you used floatplanes, I think the house rule that might work is to come in strafing level - because that evades virtually all cap. [The weapon is "very low altitude" you must admit] A mine may be a more abstract solution - you never could know when you sent these guys off just what day they would get it together.

[Dili]

qgaliana my values are only for testing , it needs tweaking against small ports and big ports, now i need to know how to make the test. Make a game and play both sides until all stuff are in place or there is an easier way?
 
El Cid i agree it is very low level . I like the floatplanes because all parts of the operation are simulated. With night atack it can even escape most CAP but i need to test AA too because it will be less precise.
 

[qgaliana]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Dili

Got an idea to escape the CAP: Force the Maiale "floatplane" to only work at night. House rule and make it only good enough to escape night fighters, an attack at day light CAP would be suicidal.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very good fremen only with experimentation we can go there. Btw how do you set up units to use the game for testing like that?

I already edited slot 034 for a Floatplane called SLC "Maiale" Max speed: 400 cruise: 350 endurance:120(do i need to duplicate range?); Max load 500; To be tweaked durability of 40; armor 2; Maneuvre:60.  

25 in pool tough i would like 12 in pool and a production of say 0,5 month but i am not sure i can put that kind of values.
Weapon: Maiale Time Bomb number:1 Facing: External


slot 197 for "Maiale Time Bomb" let stay the data for Ohka 1300mm penetration;  1700 effect; no range;  Load cost 500;

I think missiles may be better - give them the real range and speed and warhead of your weapon - which is sort of an "underwater missile." However, if you used floatplanes, I think the house rule that might work is to come in strafing level - because that evades virtually all cap. [The weapon is "very low altitude" you must admit] A mine may be a more abstract solution - you never could know when you sent these guys off just what day they would get it together.

Strafing altitude sounds good because it means pretty much any light AA asset gets a shot. Which means more bases forces equals better chance of stopping the attack, which sounds just fine. We already have mine-laying subs, no? The end effects could wind up the same but it wouldn't add any character to the game this way.

Is some adventurous soul going to propose a device for the LRDG and SAS now? [:D]

[el cid again]

If you have a slot, naming a plane the right way and creating the right art may make it look like the right sort of attack is happening - but in the wrong segment!

[Dili]

Conclusions from my tests:
 All tests in Alexandria Port.
 
Float planes only can use bombs (no torpedos apparently)  ; they kill people (about 10-20 casualities) but never hit a ship yet.
Never all 3 attack take off it's always 2.
Never from my samples takes off at night. So no night port atacks.
Despite an outstanding performance (500mph 90 maneuverality 2 armor) that didnt prevented kills by Hurricanes and AA.
 
More tests: put some defensive 7.7mm to scare Hurricanes. Weapons tweaks.
 
My optimism took an hit.

[el cid again]

Night attacks are so rare I once believed they didn't happen. But they do - just very seldom.

Seaplanes CAN fire torpedoes - but only if they target a naval target. ANY aircraft that can use bombs can use torpedoes. And torpedoes are wierd - the same torpedo can be used by a ship, plane and submarine.

I recommend having your seaplanes fire a modified missile.

[qgaliana]

Dili, try some prior recon on the base to force a night attack? Or park a sub directly in the base hex.
 
BTW, Why would you want to make them immune to AA? Something in the port should be able to hurt them, no?

[Dili]

Good idea or maybe not surprise is lost unless the reson is make at same time.
I dont want them to be immune but if they are not making damage and getting killed something is not balanced. But the problem right now is to make them make damage.