New Zealand Map Problems

[el cid again]

I sank both Islands of New Zealand - and moved them to a new location for Level 7 maps. The process caused me to
study the maps carefully.

I found the North End of North Island is entirely missing, pwhex wise, and not in play. Shown in art as mountains, it has a famous "90 mile beach" and is for all intents and purposes clear - complete with road system (possibly trail system in 1941).

I found Auckland is also not represented properly in any map system. The big problem is that there are two different ports which do not connect. Related to that, the airfield complex is not in the present Auckland hex at all - but in "South Auckland" (informal) or Manukau. That hex has a lot less industry, but a lot more port capacity, the main port defenses,
the airfield complex, and the repair yard. The Auckland hex has most of the industry, the HQ, and most of the military units. Not at all well represented by one hex, I have divided the city into two hexes which adjoin, giving you a port on each coast - as it should be. We lost Picton as a town to give us the slot.

These (Auckland) changes will appear in x.668 level releases of data files. The redefinition of the North Island hexes is in pwhex x.668 - 6.668 is now uploaded.

[treespider]

Not sure what the issue with Auckland is. From this map it appears that the harbor ingress/egress was on the NE or E side of the hex...

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: treespider
Not sure what the issue with Auckland is. From this map it appears that the harbor ingress/egress was on the NE or E side of the hex...

That's correct. There is a harbour on the Western coast, but it is not the main harbour. My understanding is that the Western harbour - Manukau Harbour - was not useable by large ships due to a narrow entrance channel and sandbar. The main harbour for Auckland is the Eastern one.

On my map the hex containing Auckland includes both the Eastern and Western harbours. it is not possible to represent both. Since the Eastern harbour is the one that was actually used for major shipping, it is the one represented on my map.

So there are no problems with Auckland on my map.

Andrew

[el cid again]

Actually, there are three rather large harbors at Auckland. Only one exits to the NE or E side. The other two are to the West side. The most developed of the three is Manukau Harbor. Pretty undeveloped then was Kaipara Harbor. By far the smaller of the set is the East Coast Bays - but it was somewhat developed in 1941 and counts. Kaipara Harbor would be in a third hex - but the way the CHS/Level 5/6 maps work it there is no proper hex. In Level 7 we could do it - but it isn't worth a slot. Let Hamukau represent both.

Auckland is one of very few ports with two disconnected ports on different major bodies of water. I do not see how it isn't a problem if we do not represent that? Auckland hex in CHS/RHS also was not the hex of the airport or military airfields. I don't see how that isn't a problem either? These lie to the South of Auckland proper, right beside Manukau port.

Manukau is also the third largest city on New Zealand. Not to include it - but to include everything we have smaller - does not compute economically either.

[JeffroK]

Manukau is only 5km from Aukland City, how big are your hexes??

Soon afterwards Otahuhu became a borough in its own right (outside the county). Manurewa became a town district in 1916 and a borough in 1937. Papatoetoe became a town district in 1919 and a borough in 1946. Papakura, which had been a town district since 1882, became a borough in 1938. Howick became a town district in 1922 and a borough in 1952.

Manukau County Council thus administered a largely rural area adjoining a number of growing towns. However, particularly after the extension of the southern motorway to Wiri in 1955, the population of the county itself grew rapidly. County townships were established at Mangere Bridge, Bucklands and Eastern Beaches, and Beachlands in 1954, Mangere East in 1955, Pakuranga in 1956, Maraetai in 1962, and Otara in 1964


Sid, I think you need to look at 1941, not 2007

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Actually, there are three rather large harbors at Auckland. Only one exits to the NE or E side. The other two are to the West side. The most developed of the three is Manukau Harbor. Pretty undeveloped then was Kaipara Harbor. By far the smaller of the set is the East Coast Bays - but it was somewhat developed in 1941 and counts.

Not correct. The Eastern harbour was the main one. For example, see: Waitemata Harbour

Auckland is one of very few ports with two disconnected ports on different major bodies of water. I do not see how it isn't a problem if we do not represent that?

I am talking about my map, in which both the main Auckland harbour (facing the Pacific) and Manukau Harbour (facing the Tasman Sea) are in the same hex. The only way to allow ships in that hex to move both to the East and the West is to have Ocean or coastal hexsides in both of those directions. That is turn allows ships to pass through the hex as if it contained a canal. That is how it is a problem.

Auckland hex in CHS/RHS also was not the hex of the airport or military airfields. I don't see how that isn't a problem either? These lie to the South of Auckland proper, right beside Manukau port.

You are free to put bases wherever you wish, for whatever reason. On my map the Auckland hex also contains the RNZAF bases in the area.

As mentioned, this is all on my map. I have no idea how it is set up on your map. I was simply replying to your assertion that "Auckland is also not represented properly in any map system", which is incorrect.

Andrew

[Andrew Brown]

Out of interest, here is another interesting looking page about Auckland Harbour that I stumbled upon:

New Zealand Indicator loop Stations

[JeffroK]

The first early settlers arrived in the Manukau Harbour in 1835, purchasing land from the native Maori, and in 1840 a fencible settlement was established. This force of retired soldiers was brought in to strengthen the defences of Auckland because many colonists felt in danger from hostile Maori. The early settlement of Onehunga subsequently began to be established.
Onehunga was a frequent port of call for coastal vessels operating between other west coast New Zealand ports. Passenger traffic was also extremely popular in the late 1800s, with passenger steamers operating between many of the New Zealand west coast ports. These passenger services ceased in the 1930s with the growing popularity of the main trunk railway.
During the 1950s there was an increase in the tonnage of goods handled at Onehunga, and this trend continued until the mid 1960s.
Today the port is close to a large and growing industrial area in South Auckland, which has assisted the port in continuing to service a steady flow of coastal traders and the local fishing fleet.
The Manukau Harbour is one of the most extensive inlets on the west coast of New Zealand, with a water area of 394 square kilometres. However navigation is restricted to several clearly defined channels due to a number of factors. A large part of the harbour consists of tidal sandbars, a curving sand bar is situated several miles offshore across the harbour entrance, and the harbour entrance is also extremely narrow. A signal station is situated on South Head (the southern point of the harbour) to assist vessels entering and departing the harbour.

[JeffroK]

Base Auckland
[/align]Located near the upper reaches of the Waitemata Harbour (20 minutes drive north of Auckland city) and comprises Whenuapai and Hobsonville airfields and support facilities.
Hobsonville was established as a sea-plane station in 1928. It was the RNZAF's primary flying boat base in New Zealand until 1967. Construction of Whenuapai as a base for Wellington bomber aircraft began in 1937.
Post World War II Auckland became a centre for RNZAF transport and maritime squadrons. From 1945-1965 Whenuapai was also Auckland's civil international airport. These two independent bases were integrated in 1965 to form RNZAF Base Auckland. Hobsonville will close in 2002/2003.
 
Note the Air Force Base was NORTH of Auckland, not SOUTH near Manuaku harbour.
 
You are probably looking at the International Airport.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Actually, there are three rather large harbors at Auckland. Only one exits to the NE or E side. The other two are to the West side. The most developed of the three is Manukau Harbor. Pretty undeveloped then was Kaipara Harbor. By far the smaller of the set is the East Coast Bays - but it was somewhat developed in 1941 and counts. Kaipara Harbor would be in a third hex - but the way the CHS/Level 5/6 maps work it there is no proper hex. In Level 7 we could do it - but it isn't worth a slot. Let Hamukau represent both.

Auckland is one of very few ports with two disconnected ports on different major bodies of water. I do not see how it isn't a problem if we do not represent that? Auckland hex in CHS/RHS also was not the hex of the airport or military airfields. I don't see how that isn't a problem either? These lie to the South of Auckland proper, right beside Manukau port.

Manukau is also the third largest city on New Zealand. Not to include it - but to include everything we have smaller - does not compute economically either.

In 2007 these things may exist ...I wish you would really stop trying to apply today's infrastructure to your scenarios...In 1941 Manukau was a largely rural county...

1 April 1941
The 1941 census is cancelled because of the war, but according to population estimates, Otahuhu Borough now has an estimated 6020 people, Papatoetoe Town District 2640, Manurewa Borough 1560, and Howick Town District 930. Manukau County (10,300) remains largely rural, although there is some urban development at Mangere Bridge, Mangere East, and Weymouth, and holiday settlements have developed at Bucklands Beach and Beachlands. Further south are Papakura Borough (1920), Pukekohe Borough (2690), Waiuku Town District (880) and Tuakau Town District (720).

20 September 1926
A new wharf at Weymouth is officially opened (the first wharf had been built in 1911). Weymouth has by this time become one of the most popular beaches on the Manukau Harbour. A New Year's Day regatta is held there annually during the 1920s and 1930s.

[JeffroK]

Its sad, I'm quoting Wikipedia[:-]
 
The Kaipara Harbour is an inlet of the Tasman Sea located near the base of the North Auckland Peninsula on the western side of the North Island of New Zealand.
The harbour is one of the largest in the world. It is a very broad shallow harbour covering an area of 530 square kilometres (330 miles) and has more than 3200 km (2000 mi) of shoreline. It extends for some 60 kilometres (40 mi) from north to south, and has a four kilometre (2.5 mi) wide entrance to the Tasman Sea halfway along its length. The Wairoa River has its outflow into the northern end of the harbour. Several large arms extend into the interior of the peninsula at the northeast of the harbour, one of them ending near the town of Maungaturoto, only ten kilometres (6 mi) from the Pacific Ocean coast.
Although officially called a harbour, the Kaipara is rarely used for shipping, owing to the treacherous tides and bars at its mouth. For this reason, no large settlements lie close to its shores, although many small communities lie along its coastline.
Administratively, the lower part of the harbour lies within the Auckland Region, while the upper half is within the Northland Region.

[JeffroK]

Sid,
 
Considering this level of Harbour as being worth entering in RHS will open Pandora's can of worms.
 
There would be hundreds, if not more, small ports, bays, harbours etc which would be of similar size. The coastlines of every nation would be smothered in them.
 
While this would allow the ability to land at bases other than the major cities, I dont think the WITP database would be able to handle the units required to defend them.

[JeffroK]

PS. As Hamukau is in the Sandwich Islands I cant see how it could represent a port in New Zealand[8D]

[Andrew Brown]

I like how these discussions lead to the uncovering of more information I was not aware of. I found this interesting and useful looking website as well:

Wartime RNZAF Stations

I already like the idea off adding Waipapakauri as a base.

[el cid again]

[quote]ORIGINAL: JeffK

Manukau is only 5km from Aukland City, how big are your hexes??

[quote]

I am surprised it is not 0 km. It is today. 5 km from the nearest boundary to the nearest boundary does not tell us much. On my 1 : 1.25 million maps the city centers are 30 km apart. That is more than half a hex on our game scale. And the map art puts Auckland at the isthmus and a hex below it in the right place to be Manukau - at least in CHS and the RHS 5 and 6 schemes based on it. [In Level 7 we use different art - and Manukau is still present - but because we have laid New Zealand more on its back - it appears more SW than S as it does in the more common map scheme.] Both cities approach 1 hex in extent today - always allowing that much of this area is water and not land. But the city centers - and the harbor and airfield locations - are where they were then. They line up nicely with the map art Andrew drew.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

[
You are free to put bases wherever you wish, for whatever reason. On my map the Auckland hex also contains the RNZAF bases in the area.

As mentioned, this is all on my map. I have no idea how it is set up on your map. I was simply replying to your assertion that "Auckland is also not represented properly in any map system", which is incorrect.

Andrew

When I studied 1 million to one aero and 1.25 million to one Nellis maps - and consulted with the Auckland Harbor Authority - I concluded that the map art is well done and that Auckland itself is in the right hex. But the hex does not extend far enough South to include Manukou or the adjacent airfield - although possibly it contains part of it (depending on interpretation of the art - which is pretty small). I use the clear indication Auckland is at the isthmus as my guide. Manukou is South of the isthmus. I suppose I could begin every statement with "in my opinion" - but that seems redundent. Even if you didn't think the hex contained Manukou and the airflield, it would be a proper design option to include them - they are so close. But it would not then solve the harbor problem: ships cannot cross the isthmus IRL - and they should not be able to in the game - at least IMHO.

Now if there is more data on the port status in 1941 - that is worth looking at. I used current data from the current people - who may not know much about its history. We can put the main port in either hex. But IMHO we need both hexes. I sure don't see how to leave out the third biggest city?

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

PS. As Hamukau is in the Sandwich Islands I cant see how it could represent a port in New Zealand[8D]

Of course it is Manukau - just a typo

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Sid,

Considering this level of Harbour as being worth entering in RHS will open Pandora's can of worms.

There would be hundreds, if not more, small ports, bays, harbours etc which would be of similar size. The coastlines of every nation would be smothered in them.

While this would allow the ability to land at bases other than the major cities, I dont think the WITP database would be able to handle the units required to defend them.

My information is this is the main harbor. If not it is a major secondary harbor. And unless it is in the same hex, the game system requires it be represented separately. We combine all secondary harbors in the same hex: eg. Tokyo, Yokohama, Yokosuka are one harbor system in the same hex.

here the technical issue is you can falsely enter the harbor from both sides of the penninsula - and cross to the other side - which is quite false. You can enter port from either direction, but must leave that same direction.

A related issue is that Auckland is defended by an off site airfield.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Actually, there are three rather large harbors at Auckland. Only one exits to the NE or E side. The other two are to the West side. The most developed of the three is Manukau Harbor. Pretty undeveloped then was Kaipara Harbor. By far the smaller of the set is the East Coast Bays - but it was somewhat developed in 1941 and counts. Kaipara Harbor would be in a third hex - but the way the CHS/Level 5/6 maps work it there is no proper hex. In Level 7 we could do it - but it isn't worth a slot. Let Hamukau represent both.

Auckland is one of very few ports with two disconnected ports on different major bodies of water. I do not see how it isn't a problem if we do not represent that? Auckland hex in CHS/RHS also was not the hex of the airport or military airfields. I don't see how that isn't a problem either? These lie to the South of Auckland proper, right beside Manukau port.

Manukau is also the third largest city on New Zealand. Not to include it - but to include everything we have smaller - does not compute economically either.

In 2007 these things may exist ...I wish you would really stop trying to apply today's infrastructure to your scenarios...In 1941 Manukau was a largely rural county...

1 April 1941
The 1941 census is cancelled because of the war, but according to population estimates, Otahuhu Borough now has an estimated 6020 people, Papatoetoe Town District 2640, Manurewa Borough 1560, and Howick Town District 930. Manukau County (10,300) remains largely rural, although there is some urban development at Mangere Bridge, Mangere East, and Weymouth, and holiday settlements have developed at Bucklands Beach and Beachlands. Further south are Papakura Borough (1920), Pukekohe Borough (2690), Waiuku Town District (880) and Tuakau Town District (720).

20 September 1926
A new wharf at Weymouth is officially opened (the first wharf had been built in 1911). Weymouth has by this time become one of the most popular beaches on the Manukau Harbour. A New Year's Day regatta is held there annually during the 1920s and 1930s.

In 1941 Anchorage had 500 people. How many did Auckland have? Nothing like over a million like today (or a quarter of a million in Anchorage). I don't think things did not change. Why do you think otherwise? 6000 is a city in 1941 - and not a small one. We put anchorage on the map with a whopping 500. Fairbanks had 5000.

[JeffroK]

.