Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues

[vahauser]

Alby,

There is a problem with the Polish 100mm howitzers. The 1939 on-map 100mm howitzer scetion and battery have the same stats as the off-map 100mm battery. Specifically, the 1939 on-map section and battery both have 32 men per gun. Pretty sure this is an error.

Also, I cannot find the German 100mm field gun anywhere in any OOBs. The 100mm field gun was the standard long-range counterbattry gun in the German artillery regiments. Standard organization was 2 batteries of 105mm howitzers and 1 battery of 100mm field guns per "medium" artillery battalion. Since the 100mm field gun was such a common gun found everywhere within the German Army, it seems very odd that I can't find it in the German OOB. My guess as to stats: Accuracy 17, Range 224, Rate of Fire 5, Crew 8, Weight 210, Kill 9, Warhead 5, HE Penetration 32, AP Penetration 148, HEAT Penetration 100.

Also, the German "Overstrength" off-map artillery in the Czech OOB do not have increased ammo, but they do have the increased price.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

vahauser,

I belive you are refering to the 10cm K18.

This gun was actually a 105mm gun that could fire at ranges over 20,000 yds.

Some divisions got a few but most did not. They were issued to Corps and Army formations.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Alby,

There is a problem with the Polish 100mm howitzers. The 1939 on-map 100mm howitzer scetion and battery have the same stats as the off-map 100mm battery. Specifically, the 1939 on-map section and battery both have 32 men per gun. Pretty sure this is an error.

Yes thats an error...one more for the list, almost up to 100 now....
Poland has some LBM errors too but I am not sure exactly which ones to use to correct them yet, waiting for confirmation from someone.

Also, I cannot find the German 100mm field gun anywhere in any OOBs. The 100mm field gun was the standard long-range counterbattry gun in the German artillery regiments. Standard organization was 2 batteries of 105mm howitzers and 1 battery of 100mm field guns per "medium" artillery battalion. Since the 100mm field gun was such a common gun found everywhere within the German Army, it seems very odd that I can't find it in the German OOB. My guess as to stats: Accuracy 17, Range 224, Rate of Fire 5, Crew 8, Weight 210, Kill 9, Warhead 5, HE Penetration 32, AP Penetration 148, HEAT Penetration 100

First i have ever heard of this one....
[&:]

Also, the German "Overstrength" off-map artillery in the Czech OOB do not have increased ammo, but they do have the increased price.

Yep, they are correct in DVRN, but not DV for some reason...good catch
one more closer to 100

[:)]

[vahauser]

KED,

Here is the gun data (taken from the Handbook on German Military Forces):

105-MM MEDIUM GUN (s. 10 cm K. 18).
(1) General description. The 10 cm K. 18 is the standard medium gun. It has a mount interchangeable with that of the 15 cm s. F. H. 18. The breech is hand-operated, with horizontal sliding block and cartridge case obturation.

(2) Characteristics.

Caliber . . . . . 105 mm (4.14 inches).
Length of tube . . . . . 17 feet 11.28 inches.
Weight in action . . . . . 11,424 pounds.
Maximum range . . . . . 20,850 yards.
Muzzle velocity . . . . . 2,740 feet per second.
Traverse . . . . . 60°.
Elevation . . . . . -1° 30' to +45°.
Traction . . . . . Horse- or motor-drawn.

(3) Ammunition. HE, AP and APCBC projectiles are fired. Projectile weights are: HE, 33.5 pounds, AP, 31.25 pounds ; APCBC, 34.63 pounds. Three charges, small, medium, and large, are used.

Note that the gun was mounted on the standard 150mm field howitzer carriage. I'm still looking for verification that the gun was standard divisional artillery (or not).

[vahauser]

Okay, a little more information regarding the German 10cm K 18 field gun. 

According to our own SPWAW TO/Es supplied with the game (by Scott and George Grasse), 1 battery of 10cm K 18 field guns were organic to all 1939-style infantry divisions.  Not sure if that included the motorized infantry divisions, but my guess is that yes it did.  Anyway, that makes the 10cm K 18 pretty common during the early war years at least (my guess is Rarity 1).

[KG Erwin]

A chart of German Artillery Production 1939-45 can be found here: http://www.feldgrau.com/weaprod.html

SPWaW OOB 1.1 (authored by Michael Wood), has a 100mm FH in the German database.

Max Range: 218
Max APCR: 0
Accuracy: 32
Warhead: 6
HE Kill: 10
Pen AP: 0
Pen HE: 32
Pen APCR: 0
Pen HEAT: 0
Type: Large Gun
Size: 12

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

A chart of German Artillery Production 1939-45 can be found here: http://www.feldgrau.com/weaprod.html

SPWaW OOB 1.1 (authored by Michael Wood), has a 100mm FH in the German database.

Max Range: 218
Max APCR: 0
Accuracy: 32
Warhead: 6
HE Kill: 10
Pen AP: 0
Pen HE: 32
Pen APCR: 0
Pen HEAT: 0
Type: Large Gun
Size: 12

whats the "unit" stats?

This weapon (the 10.5 cm K18) by the way, is on the 105mm Pzsf IVa in the czech OOB.

[KG Erwin]

Mike did not have a "unit" listed for the 100mm FH, it's just in the weapons list.

Ok, since it's in the Czech database, that should be sufficient.

I did some checking on Leo Niehorster's Orbat site, and the 105mm K18 gun was used in corps-level artillery battalions, NOT in divisional artillery regiments.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Mike did not have a "unit" listed for the 100mm FH, it's just in the weapons list.

Ok, since it's in the Czech database, that should be sufficient.

I did some checking on Leo Niehorster's Orbat site, and the 105mm K18 gun was used in corps-level artillery battalions, NOT in divisional artillery regiments.

Yes those numbers seem to indicate it was't issue in great numbers early in the war...I dont think we need another 105 in the German oob do we?
I'll add it to the weapons list for designers.
that unit in the Czech oob is a tank destroyer unit BTW
[:)]

[vahauser]

Glenn,
 
The weapon you are quoting is the "Skoda" 100mm howitzer.  That "Skoda" howitzer is not the same weapon I've been referring to.  The weapon I've been talking about is a field gun (the s. 10cm K 18), not a howitzer.  In addition, the stats you provided are for a 100mm howitzer, not a field gun:
 
Max Range: 218
Max APCR: 0
Accuracy: 32 (divided by 4 = 8)
Warhead: 6
HE Kill: 10
Pen AP: 0
Pen HE: 32
Pen APCR: 0
Pen HEAT: 0
Type: Large Gun
Size: 12

These are the stats of a howizer, not a field gun.
 
And, if you look at the TO/Es provided with SPWAW (by Scott and George Grasse), they list the 10cm K 18 as part of the divisional artillery of the 1939-style infantry divisions (and perhaps motorized divisions, too, since they were formed from and patterned after 1939 infantry divisions).
 
 
Alby,
 
The reason I've brought this up is because I can't find it anywhere in the German, Norwegian, Czech OOBs.  My claim is that the weapon has been overlooked and accidentally omitted from the OOBs.  Who overlooked it and when that happened is not important to me. I only want to see the OOB accurately represented.  My belief is that the 10cm K 18 gun is a Rarity 1 weapon (failrly common).

[vahauser]

[font="times new roman"]Alby,[/font]
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[font="times new roman"]The weapon you are referring to in the Czech OOB, the 105mm Pz Sf IVa, is shown in the Encyclopedia as a heavy tank destroyer in 1941.  However, the Czech OOB has no tank destroyers in 1941.  The first tank destroyers show up in the Czech OOB in 1942, by which time the 105mm Pz Sf IVa is already gone (that 1942 tank destroyer carries a 128mm gun, which was probably impossible in 1942, I really question that such a weapon even existed, and even if such a weapon ever existed it probably should not be allowed by German players in 1942 since no tanks in any nation’s inventory can withstand that weapon (well maybe the JS-4s in 1948 could withstand it)).  [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Anyway, my recommendation is delete the 105mm Pz Sf IVa (since it never appears in the game anyway) and that 128mm abomination from the Czech OOB and, using the two empty weapon slots, use one of those weapon slots to add the 10cm K 18 field gun.[/font]
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[vahauser]

Here is the Artillery Production from feldgrau.com.
I've known Jason Long for years and he does good work so I trust his numbers.

Total production of the 10cm K 18 field gun was 1515 tubes.
Total production of the 17cm mrs. Laf field gun was 338 tubes.
Total production of the 21cm mrs. 18 howitzer was 711 tubes.

Since SPWAW rates the 21cm howitzer as Rarity 3, then the 10cm K 18 gun should probably be Rarity 2, and not Rarity 1 as I first suggested.

[vahauser]

I went to Niehorster's site and here is the 2nd Motorized Infantry Division, 1 Sept 1939.

Note that I/38 battalion consists of twelve 10cm K 18 field guns. So, the 10cm K 18 is indeed organic to divisional artillery. [Edited: THIS IS INCORRECT. My apologies. I mis-interpreted Niehorster's artillery symbols. The 105mm field gun in NOT organic to German divisions. See my post below.]

SPECIAL NOTE: Just because the Germans called this field gun the 10cm K 18, it is NOT a 100mm weapon. It is in fact a 105mm weapon (as shown in the weapon stats I posted in an earlier post higher up in this thread from the Handbook on German Military Forces, also Jason Long confirms this on the feldgrau site, 105mm).

[vahauser]

Also from Niehorster's site, here is the standard TO/E divisional artillery for all 1st-wave infantry divisions, 1 Sept 1939:

Note that the first battalion, denoted (s) for schwere, in the artillery regiment consists of twelve 10cm K 18 field guns. Here again, the 10cm K 18 field gun was indeed organic to German divisional artillery. [Edited: THIS IS INCORRECT. My apologies. I mis-interpreted Niehorster's artillery symbols. The 105mm field gun in NOT organic to German divisions. See my post below.]

[vahauser]

Suggested 10cm K 18 stats:


[edited, wrong screenshot]

[vahauser]

Suggested 10cm K 18 stats (correct screenshot):

[vahauser]

Glenn,

I was incorrect regarding my interpretation of Niehorster's artillery symbols.  What I was calling 105mm field guns organic to divisions, are in fact 150mm howitzers.

Bottom Line:  105mm field guns are NOT organic to 1939 divisions.  Those are 150mm howitzers.  So disregard my comments regarding those two Niehorster screenshots I posted above.

Anyway, you are correct.  The 105mm field guns are corps and army assets, not divisional.

However, SPWAW includes 210mm howitzers and 170mm guns (not rated correctly though), and these are corps and army assets.  And since the German 105mm field gun was much more common than both the 210mm howitzer and 170mm gun, then the German 105mm field gun should be included in the OOB somewhere.

[264rifle]

The problem may be slots.

The major difference between this gun and the standard howitzer is range for game play. This is only an issue for figuring out counter battery fire.

The difference in HE content might be argued but then there are a number of weapons that changed shell/HE content during the war. The British 5.5 is a prime example 100lb vrs 80lb shell, a few thousnd yds difference in range (surely worth at least ONE number difference n the game[;)]) with a rather different effect on target. 80lb shell holding a lot more explosive.
Do the British get two different 5.5s?

is this weapon to be offboard only? If used on board (now 2 slots) without some very careful pricing is it going to become a "secret anti-tank weapon"?

rates of fire are fudged between off-board and on-board artillery. Off -board weapons don't get OP-fire so their rates of fire are higher than onboard guns.

The Americans had two different 155 howitzers and two different 155 guns. Are they included?

The 10cm K 18 field gun may have used the same projectiles as the gun in the 105mm Pzsf IVa but they may not have been the same gun.

vahauser: A bit off topic but if you really want an accurate German OOB you might want to think about the the armament of the MK I, MK II and some of the MK III tanks.

MK I had one man in an over turned wash tub trying to load and fire TWO seperate 25 round mag fed machine guns. Sights only went to 800meters (16 hexes).

MK II Had a ONE man turret. While the 2cm gun was full auto it had 10 round magazines that the gunner commander had to refit to the gun himself. There is also some evidence that only AP ammo was issued, at least in early years.

MK IIIs have a problem with penetration curves. While gun penetration is correct at short ranges, it is way too powerful at long ranges. The only way to correct this is to shorten the max range considerably. ( like to around 30-35) which doesn't jib with either sights or battle accounts against tanks with thin armour.

[vahauser]

264rifle,
 
Those are all excellent observations. 
 
However, since the PzSf IVa only exists in the Encyclopedia (only two were built and the weapon never shows up in the actual game), and since only two PzSf V were ever built (both prototypes), then these two weapons could easily be deleted from the Czech OOB to make room for the 105mm K 18 field gun (over 1500 of which saw service).
 
As of today, the German OOB has no real counter-battery artillery (mainly because the ratings of the 170mm gun are messed up).  And even if someday the 170mm gun gets historically correct ratings, the 105mm gun was far more numerous.  I say that the German OOB needs a standard counter-battery gun way more than it needs two prototype self-propelled AT guns (only 4 of which were ever produced (2 each of the Pz SF IVa and Pz Sf V)).

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

[font="times new roman"]Alby,[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]The weapon you are referring to in the Czech OOB, the 105mm Pz Sf IVa, is shown in the Encyclopedia as a heavy tank destroyer in 1941.  However, the Czech OOB has no tank destroyers in 1941.  The first tank destroyers show up in the Czech OOB in 1942, by which time the 105mm Pz Sf IVa is already gone (that 1942 tank destroyer carries a 128mm gun, which was probably impossible in 1942, I really question that such a weapon even existed, and even if such a weapon ever existed it probably should not be allowed by German players in 1942 since no tanks in any nation’s inventory can withstand that weapon (well maybe the JS-4s in 1948 could withstand it)).  [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Anyway, my recommendation is delete the 105mm Pz Sf IVa (since it never appears in the game anyway) and that 128mm abomination from the Czech OOB and, using the two empty weapon slots, use one of those weapon slots to add the 10cm K 18 field gun.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]

There is an error in the TD formations date in the czech oob is why the 105 PzIv isnt showing up......I'd rather fix the date error than delete the unit.....[8|]

There are enough weapon slots to add something without deleting anything.....
the weapon (105mm K18 FH) was added to the German OOB.
No unit has been added.....there is only one unit slot left in German OOB, so...cannot have both on and off board if this unit is added.

[:)]