New Zealand Map Problems

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: el cid again


I see...So while Anchorage may have had a civilian populace of 500, the military actually outnumbered them..That makes a lot of sense in making it so large..
Strategically, (if one needs slots), what role might Nome fulfill, (other than it being more northern?) Further, some of the Canadian towns might be redundany, (albeit nice for chrome)?

Eventually there were vast base complexes - and German POW camps - and 5 camps we never talk about (to hold Aleuts forcably evicted from 8 villages but technically not prisoners - not thought to be a threat - and not allowed to leave - or even have medicine during epidemics! A scandal virtually unknown in US history.) But the camp followers probably always outnumbered the troops as such - and so the growth was explosive. By the end of the war the natives were a small minority in a place they had been the vast majority in when it began.

Nome is hard to use in the game - and I have never heard of it being used at all. But it was a big deal IRL. The Berlin Airlift was modeled on the Nome Airlift - an event itself based on false intelligence of a Japanese invasion threat. Before that it was mooted as the terminus of the US rail road which the ALCAN highway was supposed to be the first stage in building! But that highway (a pioneer road at first) was never completed to Nome - ever - to this day. It was not completed to highway status either during the war - it barely has made that today (if you allow that parts of it are always under repair it is pretty smooth sailing now). That plan - to build a RR to Nome by about the end of 1942 - would have itself been only the foundation of a grander scheme to build a network of bases and communications lines on the Soviet side of the border - and some of that was based on historical Trans Siberian RR planning (which itself was just recommended for completion by the last premier of the USSR in a retirement speech a year or so ago). Since we cannot build rail lines or roads, it is hard to put such plans into the game - and since Japan almost never invades (unless run by Admiral Nemo) - having a major air base on the flank almost never matters. Feeding it by airlift is also problematical.

Nice as the ALCAN is as chrome, it - and Whitehorse - are almost meaningless - supplies do not really move down it enough to matter (resources may howver). Unless Japan took the coast I don't see how it could be used at all?
But a special mod - RHSNRO (Northern Route Option) might let us explore this - if anyone ever could explain how Stalin might have been made to support instead of oppose the plan? It is the best way in a military-logistic sense. The idea the weather is intolerable is stuff and nonsense. Fog - and lack of surveys - were a big deal - but the Aleutians below mountaintop level never have any snow or ice at all - they are heated by the Japan Current - and the distances to Japan are far less - so even medium bombers are able to make the crossing to Japan from the Aleutians outer islands. If the Komandorskies and Kamchatka are developed - Japan is in big trouble. And of course if Amur province is used - Japan is threatened at its economic heart (its iron and coal come from Manchukuo and Korea - along with its copper, aluminum and most of its food).

[m10bob]

Speaking of locations which might get "upgraded" based on airfields in the same hex:

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK


[Sid,

I think think Andrews suggestion is OK, the small port only supported a coastal service which went south to New Plymouth & Wellington (

If your theory for Auckland (pop approx 217,000 in 1935) is continued, how about extra hexes for Sydney (Airbase at Bankstown and Richmond), Melbourne Airbases at Essendon, Laverton, Pt Cook, Moorabbin both with a population approaching 1mill plus. Brisbane about 200,00o with Eagle Farm on the coast and Amberley about 30 miles inland. Adelaide over 250,000, Perth had the civil airfield close to the CBD (about 10km) and Pearce AFB about 30 miles inland

In Enzed, and OZ, most hexes which are not Mountainous would be capable of supporting a level 4 or greater airfield.

Other Ports suggested for NZ, on South Is Grey mouth on the west coast.

For OZ. Westernport Bay (1 hex east of Melbourne) Pt Macquarie, Bowen, Bundaberg, Innisfail, Gove/Nlunbuy(sp?) , Bunbury, Busselton, Esperance, Pt Lincoln, Pt Pirie, Portland.

I'm sure others could add USA/Canadian West Coast ports.

You completely misunderstand our situation. Above you will note I said RHS has a total of ONE slot available. Andrew replied he has a total of TWO slots. My consideration of adding more locations in NZ is ONLY possible by LOSING slots somewhere else. Having added many slots in places like Burma, Celebes, Australia, etc ( just lately - all for good reasons ) I have used up most of the "dots" which Andrew might be able to feed off of (undeveloped sites which are unlikely to be used in 99% of games or more). Before doing those places, I added locations in China, India, Japan, Russia, the Philippines, the US West Coast and the South Pacific. I try to make sure important places are in. But we are now unable to add ANYTHING without losing something else. There will no longer be any "add this" or "add that" without losing something. Period. This forces an evaluation of how important a location is to the game system as it may unfold?
I find that certain DEI dots are never used. But most of the other stuff is sometimes important.

Auckland is a very unusual case BECAUSE of the divided harbor situation. [The Auckland Port Authority is very proud of it too] It is wrong to say a ship cannot dock at Auckland approaching from the West - OR the East. But a ship cannot pass through the hex to the other side. THAT is why I think it needs two hexes - not because I want to use two slots - which are too rare. We need WITP II to fix that. [Well - maybe. We might get more slots in WITP I - but UNTIL that happens we don't have them.]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Speaking of locations which might get "upgraded" based on airfields in the same hex:

I don't think that is an option. Actually - if multiple airfields are in the same hex - we need to upgrade the airfield build rating of the hex. I don't think Auckland rates two hexes because of multiple airfields. I think it rates two hexes to represent two harbors - and because the airfields are spread out so much some of them are not in the hex represented by the map art. They could be in terms of hex size - but they are not because of where the lines fall. It happens to be a technical trick that helps compensate for the fact we have all shortchanged NZ of the number of hexes it would have if it were where Luzon is. Note that we HAVE added more than a few airfields near Darwin - offshore - along the shore - and inland. But always in DIFFERENT hexes. In WITP more airfields in one hex don't help much - one bomber or BB raid can take it down.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Speaking of locations which might get "upgraded" based on airfields in the same hex:

I don't think that is an option. Actually - if multiple airfields are in the same hex - we need to upgrade the airfield build rating of the hex. I don't think Auckland rates two hexes because of multiple airfields. I think it rates two hexes to represent two harbors - and because the airfields are spread out so much some of them are not in the hex represented by the map art. They could be in terms of hex size - but they are not because of where the lines fall. It happens to be a technical trick that helps compensate for the fact we have all shortchanged NZ of the number of hexes it would have if it were where Luzon is. Note that we HAVE added more than a few airfields near Darwin - offshore - along the shore - and inland. But always in DIFFERENT hexes. In WITP more airfields in one hex don't help much - one bomber or BB raid can take it down.

Actually, I agree with your logic, the ability to "build" is important, and correct, more so here (in Darwin) than in jungle terrain..I would increase build capability on hard ground, coral atoll/lava atoll,etc.
Do individual engineer units have different "build" rates??.If so, maybe we could look to increase some of them based on the advent of "Marston Matting"??


Pacific Airfield Matting
The Allies and Japanese both devised ways to deal with the rough conditions of forward airfields in the Pacific and tropics, that were constantly plagued by enemies other than the enemy: torrential rains, drainage problems and soft or unstable ground.

US Army PSP (Periced Steel Planking) "Marston Matt"
The pierced steel plank (PSP) or Marston Mat was developed during World War II and was widely used in every theater of operations. Though rigid enough to bridge over small surface inqualities of the ground, it was used to best effect on stabilized subgrade. This combination provided an adequate semi-permanent runway. Some conception of the logistics problems of war can be gained from the fact that some 60,000 pierced steel sheets 15 inches by 10 feet are required for a 150 by 5,000 feet runway, weighing nearly 2,000 tons, requiring 35,000 cubic feet of cargo space to be shipped overseas perhaps ten or twelve thousand miles. A runway this size can could be put down in 175 hours by 100 unskilled men.

Nearly every American airfield in the Pacific used marston matt. Even at larger and more established bases with concrete runways, marston matting was often used on taxiways or even for extra traction on normal roads.

After the war, matting was used again in the Korean war, and even WWII reserves used in that conflict. Numberous exampls of Marston Matt can be found all over the pacific, often still in use to this day for the same purpose, or a variety of other 'new' uses, like fences, truck bed lining, pig-pens, foot bridges and more.


Japanese Landing Matt
Research by Yohji Sakaida with Justin Taylan

A construction experiment was done at Mobara City, Chiba Prefecture during 1942 - 1943. A landing, mat was made in Japan was good performance. There were several types: one was called "iron plate paving" another "concrete paving", and a third "iron net paving". The following problem developed at Mobara: many iron plates couldn't be connected properly, deformation by bombing couldn't be solved and they were short on materials. Therefore, the Navy and Army did not use it very much, and no improvements were made. But, the "Iron Net Paving" did not have these problems. No record of its actual usage has been found.


A6M2 at Ambon on Landing Map

Japanese airfields known to use "Landing Matt" (from wartime photos or evidence left today)
Ambon | Lakunai | Ballale

Very few examples are know to this day. The lighter Japanese landing matt appears to corrode much quicker, and any examples left today are flimsy and rusted.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Speaking of locations which might get "upgraded" based on airfields in the same hex:

I don't think that is an option. Actually - if multiple airfields are in the same hex - we need to upgrade the airfield build rating of the hex. I don't think Auckland rates two hexes because of multiple airfields. I think it rates two hexes to represent two harbors - and because the airfields are spread out so much some of them are not in the hex represented by the map art. They could be in terms of hex size - but they are not because of where the lines fall. It happens to be a technical trick that helps compensate for the fact we have all shortchanged NZ of the number of hexes it would have if it were where Luzon is. Note that we HAVE added more than a few airfields near Darwin - offshore - along the shore - and inland. But always in DIFFERENT hexes. In WITP more airfields in one hex don't help much - one bomber or BB raid can take it down.

Actually, I agree with your logic, the ability to "build" is important, and correct, more so here (in Darwin) than in jungle terrain..I would increase build capability on hard ground, coral atoll/lava atoll,etc.
Do individual engineer units have different "build" rates??.If so, maybe we could look to increase some of them based on the advent of "Marston Matting"??


Pacific Airfield Matting
The Allies and Japanese both devised ways to deal with the rough conditions of forward airfields in the Pacific and tropics, that were constantly plagued by enemies other than the enemy: torrential rains, drainage problems and soft or unstable ground.

US Army PSP (Periced Steel Planking) "Marston Matt"
The pierced steel plank (PSP) or Marston Mat was developed during World War II and was widely used in every theater of operations. Though rigid enough to bridge over small surface inqualities of the ground, it was used to best effect on stabilized subgrade. This combination provided an adequate semi-permanent runway. Some conception of the logistics problems of war can be gained from the fact that some 60,000 pierced steel sheets 15 inches by 10 feet are required for a 150 by 5,000 feet runway, weighing nearly 2,000 tons, requiring 35,000 cubic feet of cargo space to be shipped overseas perhaps ten or twelve thousand miles. A runway this size can could be put down in 175 hours by 100 unskilled men.

Nearly every American airfield in the Pacific used marston matt. Even at larger and more established bases with concrete runways, marston matting was often used on taxiways or even for extra traction on normal roads.

After the war, matting was used again in the Korean war, and even WWII reserves used in that conflict. Numberous exampls of Marston Matt can be found all over the pacific, often still in use to this day for the same purpose, or a variety of other 'new' uses, like fences, truck bed lining, pig-pens, foot bridges and more.


Japanese Landing Matt
Research by Yohji Sakaida with Justin Taylan

A construction experiment was done at Mobara City, Chiba Prefecture during 1942 - 1943. A landing, mat was made in Japan was good performance. There were several types: one was called "iron plate paving" another "concrete paving", and a third "iron net paving". The following problem developed at Mobara: many iron plates couldn't be connected properly, deformation by bombing couldn't be solved and they were short on materials. Therefore, the Navy and Army did not use it very much, and no improvements were made. But, the "Iron Net Paving" did not have these problems. No record of its actual usage has been found.


A6M2 at Ambon on Landing Map

Japanese airfields known to use "Landing Matt" (from wartime photos or evidence left today)
Ambon | Lakunai | Ballale

Very few examples are know to this day. The lighter Japanese landing matt appears to corrode much quicker, and any examples left today are flimsy and rusted.

and this site claims an entire runway might be created in ONE WEEK!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marston_mats

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
You completely misunderstand our situation. Above you will note I said RHS has a total of ONE slot available. Andrew replied he has a total of TWO slots.

I did?

CHS actually has about 40 free base slots, with probably that many again if you start using the section headings. I like to keep a few slots up my sleeve.

The stock scenarios I convert for my map have more than this, of course.

Andrew

[el cid again]

Bob:

The engineers are different. Code probably gives the Allies a different build rate we cannot affect - that is SOP GG in WITP coding. But also there are differences in OB. Stock and CHS give Japan no engineer vehicles. RHS imatiates engineer units support wise - they only work well if in a hex with extra support units. RHS also radically changes the ratio of engineer vehicles, construction engineer and combat engineer squads according to unit type.

The Marston mat is just one airfield innovation. There is a wonderful thing called the Lily Pad - hexagonal drums a ship offloads into the sea (rapidly - in 30 minutes you get a fighter field) - at any sheltered anchorage. There is a similar wooden system. The drums (or wood) sink, so the mat has a sort of built in arrester gear. There are concrete islands - some vast - modular things - bases - I forget their name. The topside is an airfield. Down below you have storage, barracks, hospitals, HQ, name it. They float just about anywhere you have an anchorage. They experimented making something like that out of ice and sawdust - you could repair it with sea water! - and keep it cold with refrigerators (big ones!). These could be many miles in extent - but we didn't need them - we captured enough fields. One prototype was built in Greenland.

None of this is something we can do as far as I can see. But I keep trying.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: el cid again
You completely misunderstand our situation. Above you will note I said RHS has a total of ONE slot available. Andrew replied he has a total of TWO slots.

I did?

CHS actually has about 40 free base slots, with probably that many again if you start using the section headings. I like to keep a few slots up my sleeve.

The stock scenarios I convert for my map have more than this, of course.

Andrew

Well - maybe I cannot read - or remember properly. Glad to hear it. Not that I regret the new locations we added to RHS - I still wish for more. I developed many places to include important things which are left out of the maps - or to improve retreat paths - etc. They work well. I am now eating the "dots" - beaches.

[el cid again]

We are adding Nelson/Picton back in. We will add Greymouth (South Island) and Whangaret (north end of RR on North Island) for sure.

Reviewing some map edge issues - will issue a new Level 6 file set tomorrow.

[JeffroK]

http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.akcity.govt.nz%2Fdbtw-wpd%2Fmaps%2Fmaps.html&QF0=Negative+Number&QI0=7-C1669&MR=1&TN=Maps&RF=large&RL=0&NP=2&AC=QBE_QUERY
 
Nice map of Auckland from 1940's

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.akcity.govt.nz%2Fdbtw-wpd%2Fmaps%2Fmaps.html&QF0=Negative+Number&QI0=7-C1669&MR=1&TN=Maps&RF=large&RL=0&NP=2&AC=QBE_QUERY

Nice map of Auckland from 1940's

Very nice! Well spotted.

[JeffroK]

Hundreds of Auckland maps online at City of Auckland library.

[el cid again]

Thanks. Such things always help.

Got anything like this for other cities in NZ? We are going to add several more.

[JeffroK]

Which ones?

[el cid again]

Do you have a census - or some sort of economic indicator - of which cities are what size? I assume that Wellington is pretty big - possibly second. What MISSING cities or towns are significant? Is there a major airfield in the period NOT in what we would regard as a coastal hex? [North Palmerston comes to mind as a possibility] Such a base would not be surpressable by BB raids.

[el cid again]

I also have added Napier/Hastings. And I think we may stop unless someone has a candidate. Other locations would pretty much all be on North Island - and mostly involve changing pwhex - not just the location file. None seem too critical in the context of what we have - which looks pretty good. Anyway NZ is a bit more economically and opertionally better founded than it was. None of these towns seem to be very industrial - although NZ only oil refinery is at Whangarei - we cannot deal with that. All the HI in other places = oil refineries - and adding more seems wrong. Further - I don't know if it existed then?

[JeffroK]

From The Modern Pictorial World Atlas 1936
 
Auckland    217,000
Hamilton     18,100
New Plymouth    18,200
Gisborne     19,300
Napier/Hastings   19,300/16,750
Wellington    151,700
Blenheim      3,800 (The port opposite Wellington on South Is)
Palmerston North    24,000
Greymouth    6,000
Christchurch   133,200
Dunedin    86,500
Invercargill    24,000
Wanganui    27,850
 
New Zealand   1,573,810