Europe map?

[ptey]

Yes, that was ofcourse also what i meant. Its clear that the no bess gambit doesnt become better. Its the penalty when not doing it that becomes bigger.

[c92nichj]

Not that I disagree with you, as I think the game is not balanced and needs Russia to be stronger (and France weaker).

But if your aim with MWIF is to keep the same balance as in WIF, which I think is the case. To change the map and add another city to bessarbia is pro-allied, your suggesting to remove the option for the axis to go with the no-bessrbia gambit will make the game further pro-allied.

So instead of one pro-allied change you will introduce two pro-allied changes, which would make the game differently balanced from paperboard WIF, which might or might not be intended.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

What is the "No Beassarabia Gambit"?

[ptey]

The no bess gambit, is Germany declaring war on yugo in the second axis impulse in SO 39, and then aligning Rumania. USSR cannot claim bess before the 2nd allied impulse, but at that point Rumania is already aligned to Germany.
So Germany prevents USSR of getting Bessarabia and can start his barb from there. A very good strategy if you are going for an all out barb.

Its true that disallowing it is pro allied, but im not sure it was ever intended to be possible.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Thanks.

[trees]

To Bessarabia or not to Bessarabia is fun to discuss but the only final difference to me seems to be a choice for the Russian player whether with Bessarabia in their control if they want to waste a unit to get the factory out of Odessa or not. (an easy choice if you ask me, but then you are quickly in hot water trying to save the next threatened factory but then that is how Barbarossa '41 works). As Germany I like 'No Bessarabia' to get the blue Rumanian factory working and two easily snatched Yugoslavian resources. I might even try it without adding the Hungarians and thus losing another Russian resource but this is slower. The hardest part is possibly the short-term cut into Italy's oil supply. The flip side is with Rumania activated the Russians can stuff the border with ease. As Russia I might or might not even demand Bessarabia but in general lately I think I would as standard operating procedure. I don't think adding those two hexes to Bessarabia or the whole 'No Bessarabia' 'gambit' has a very big influence on the balance of WiF. Whether Russia survives Barbarossa comes down to your skill manuevering the cardboard pieces.

But I do very much like the idea of Harry working on some map edits.

[c92nichj]

Playing with suprised Zoc (which I don't really like) and Bessarbia in German hands Dnepr is crossed during the suprise impulse.
That is not insignificant.
It is not an uncommon strategy to try to hold Dnepr during the first turn and abandon it during the second trun. letting Germany come across during the first impulse gives him a lot more time during summer which could make or brake it.


That I wouldn't defend the Dnepr anyhow as Russia is a different point but it denies me the option of doing so.

[ptey]

When you look at a change like this, you must naturally asume good and equally competent play on both sides. Saying that "its how you move your counters that matter" is imo not an argument.

To me atleast, it seems that the gain of a (homecountry) city for Russia on the Rumanien border isnt completely negliable. If say, the germans attack in good weather from rumania you can make them lose almost one impulse of advancing at the cost of one (additional) garr. If they attack in bad weather in early spring, they will be doing less stuff elsewhere and russia will have her reserves ready when good weather comes.

Anyway, my biggest problem with this change, is that it will imo make it hard to argue for any other balkan strategy than the no bess gambit (when doing a 41 barb). Something that reduces replayability and in time will make the game more boring.
This was also why i tried to argue for removing the no bess gambit. Since it together with this change most likely will help to reduce the chance of russia getting blown out in those "kitchen sink" barbs. But its true that it might be a good idea to give the axis something in return. Since removing the no bess gambit will make a 41 barb slightly less attractive, it will also make 41 med - 42 barb more attractive (which, i think, by many is already considered the axis best bet to win). So to compensate for adding the extra city to bessarabia and removing the no bess gambit the wallies should probably be slightly weakened.

[Froonp]

ptey, I brang your issue with the no bess gambit to Harry and the playtest group of Harry. Possible solutions include allowing the Russian to claim Bessarabia in his first impulse of the game if he wants (RAW7 currently interdicts this), allowing the Russian to claim Bessarabia even if Rumania is no more neutral...
Nethertheless, real 40s geography was like this, Cernauti was in Bessarabia.

[ptey]

Great. Dont get me wrong, i fully support making the map as geographically accurate as possible.

[trees]

I just don't think adding a city there makes too big of a difference, and I am assuming equal play. The Germans can't always get enough good stuff into Rumania on time, particularly if France is played well and they are trying to save their O-Chits for Russia, and also if RaW oil is being played. The main German group will still be coming through the Lvov area, where they will lose an impulse to the 2-1 GARR which heads off to the scrap pile. The Germans can clean up Lvov in bad weather with no change to Russian production, but Cernauti and Chisinau they cannot. And if they are already in Lvov, they don't need to bother with Cernauti and the Russians have to figure out how to get Kiev _and_ Odessa out in time. Bessarabia is about one factory, Odessa. Like c92nichj says, the Dnepr is just for show in 1941; even in 1942 a strong Dnepr will just lead to an attack weighted in the north to outflank it. (I can't comment on a no-ZoC-on-surprise game, though perhaps I should try one to see if that helps the Axis get to a high enough high water mark to survive the Jolly Green Giant at the end of the game.) The critical area for Barbarossa is around and just past the factory line. If Russia gets their factories to Siberia without throwing too many units away, they survive. If they lose too many factories, they die, and if they lose too many units getting the factories out, the Germans reach the factories' new locations. Whether they lose a unit in Cernauti is not too big a change. The Germans temporarily lose a MIL while the Russians have Cernauti though so I like taking Bessarabia a tiny bit more with this change as the Russians. If the Germans try 'No Bessarabia' the Russians are rewarded with a very simple option to not allow Barbarossa 41 to even start.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: trees
I just don't think adding a city there makes too big of a difference, and I am assuming equal play. The Germans can't always get enough good stuff into Rumania on time, particularly if France is played well and they are trying to save their O-Chits for Russia, and also if RaW oil is being played. The main German group will still be coming through the Lvov area, where they will lose an impulse to the 2-1 GARR which heads off to the scrap pile. The Germans can clean up Lvov in bad weather with no change to Russian production, but Cernauti and Chisinau they cannot. And if they are already in Lvov, they don't need to bother with Cernauti and the Russians have to figure out how to get Kiev _and_ Odessa out in time. Bessarabia is about one factory, Odessa. Like c92nichj says, the Dnepr is just for show in 1941; even in 1942 a strong Dnepr will just lead to an attack weighted in the north to outflank it. (I can't comment on a no-ZoC-on-surprise game, though perhaps I should try one to see if that helps the Axis get to a high enough high water mark to survive the Jolly Green Giant at the end of the game.) The critical area for Barbarossa is around and just past the factory line. If Russia gets their factories to Siberia without throwing too many units away, they survive. If they lose too many factories, they die, and if they lose too many units getting the factories out, the Germans reach the factories' new locations. Whether they lose a unit in Cernauti is not too big a change. The Germans temporarily lose a MIL while the Russians have Cernauti though so I like taking Bessarabia a tiny bit more with this change as the Russians. If the Germans try 'No Bessarabia' the Russians are rewarded with a very simple option to not allow Barbarossa 41 to even start.

Why is that so?

[trees]

really if you do the math I think Russia can just about always prevent Barbarossa in the summer of 1941. some would dispute this (and this has come up in a few other threads) but I just think they aren't quite brave enough to do it. Russia can build a garrison-ratio-efficient-force easier than Germany can; if they put pilots in every old plane they can the numbers grow even faster. For Germany to maximize they have to completely forget the Kriegsmarine, not send anything to the Med, garrison defeated France weakly, and hope to not take many casualties there. That's a lot of things to ignore to load up the kitchen sink Barbarossa, and the CW will be grinning. [though the Balkan Axis allies do help the Axis math, Tito will have an affect on it too]. Russia only has to be willing to perhaps cede Siberia to Japan (and only needs to withdraw in the fall of 1940), and forgo Persia, which has some nice benefits in the US entry reaching levels 19 and 30 sooner. May/Jun is just about for sure, barring weird chit draws (and ADG just released new counters raising the average chit values so this is even easier). Jul/Aug is also somewhat certain. Sep/Oct and Nov/Dec are perhaps past the tipping point, but the danger is somewhat past as the chances of clear weather decrease rapidly, and the CW is perhaps knocking on the doors of Tripoli while the Wehrmacht, the most potent military force on the map in 1941, spins it's wheels on manuevers in Poland. When Germany goes with 'No Bessarabia', large parts of the Ukraine are now within three hexes of Axis territory and it is far simpler to 'stuff' the border, requiring fewer land moves a shorter distance from Mother Russia; actually the border zone is inside Mother Russia. If Uncle Joe gets nervous during a sunny September 1941 and wants to fold, his five best T-34 corps can easily escape to the hinterlands outside of Stuka range. Perhaps the infantry mass in the front ranks get to experience what the CGI Orcs did in front of Minas Tirith as the Rohirrim scream "Death", but it's not as terrible as the Red Army stuck in eastern Poland getting to experience what the bluecoats did in "The Crater" outside of Petersburg, as seen in 'Cold Mountain'. And even if Stalin packs it in and the Stukas are unleashed in August or September, they don't have as much time to flip counters over as the rain clouds approach, and Russian rear-area HQs hiding behind Dnepropetrovsk perhaps have a better chance to reorganize some so more can escape than can from advanced positions in Poland, as again if May/Jun has been lost to the Germans, and perhaps at least an impulse or two of Jul/Aug as reinforcements walk/rebase into the border zone, they can do less damage to the Red Army mass in the Ukraine and the good parts can escape from the third line. I'm not sure I always want to stuff the border in 1941, there are some advantages to the Allies in drawing the Germans in to this strategy if the Russian player is confident they can survive, but when Germany activates Rumania on impulse 2 it gets so much easier that I would have STAVKA weigh the new options more carefully.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Thanks.

[ptey]

From my experience, stuffing hardly seems like a sure thing. First its fairly dependent on the options you play with (city based volunteers, oil and others). Then there is the chit draw.
If you have the math that you have done in a form that can be presented here, i would be very interested in seeing it.

[paulderynck]

I've been collecting the info and been planning on doing this analysis for some time now. It will be in an excel spreadsheet and I'll present it here when it is done.

However, I lack a good list of the city based volunteers and the options that allow them to be in the game. I'm not so sure the oil is that big of a variable. My experience has been the Germans can build max each turn early game and still save a bit of an oil reserve for Barb. Meanwhile Russia can only save one oil a turn while neutral.

A bigger variable might be Italy entering the war early and giving a bunch of BPs to Germany over the course of a year. Mind you they should really pay in the med if they did that.

[composer99]

It's not that easy for CW to really take it to Italy in 1940 (except perhaps relieving the Italians of their African possessions) - they don't have Marines or amphibs yet.
 
But an Italy that lends all its production to Germany is asking to be beaten up in '41-'42.

[trees]

I made up a spreadsheet once but not a lot of internet time right now....

[Gendarme]

Just noticed a few things --

There's a red line between Northern Ireland/Belfast and the rest of Great Britain. Don't know if it was there on the WIFFE maps or if it should be there, since Northern Ireland was meant to still be part of the Home Country of the CW.

Orkney Islands have (Gbr) showing ownership, maybe should be changed to (CW)?

Lastly, where the northern tip of Corsica is, the island between Corsica and Italy which I believe is Elba was owned by Italy yet the map shows it as part of Corsica-France. Maybe the island of Elba (which was Napoleon's first place of exile as we all know) should be moved over to the hex adjacent to the Italian coast there, or move that part of Corsica out of the same hex with Elba? I know that would be un-WIFFE, so I don't know what to do about that one.

But these are minor points that make no difference in game play. I mean, when will anyone use Elba for anything?

Again, these maps are terrific in every way and I eagerly look forward to paper versions, to tide us over until Matrix Wif hits the shelves.

Anthony DeChristopher

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Gendarme
There's a red line between Northern Ireland/Belfast and the rest of Great Britain. Don't know if it was there on the WIFFE maps or if it should be there, since Northern Ireland was meant to still be part of the Home Country of the CW.

This must be a line showing the limits of Northern Ireland. AS far as I can see in the game, it is treated as being the UK.

Orkney Islands have (Gbr) showing ownership, maybe should be changed to (CW)?

No, because the Orkney Islands are part of the UK, Great Britain, abbreviated Gbr.

Again, these maps are terrific in every way and I eagerly look forward to paper versions, to tide us over until Matrix Wif hits the shelves.

Thanks !