Quick Battle ROUT! "bug" that's not a bug...

[LeBlaque]

First one of my typical manual corrections:

On page 112 it says night turn length for HW is 120 minutes whereas on page 154 it says 90 minutes. I don't know which one is correct, I would suspect the former...

Now a quick battle issue that I thought was a bug originally: I noted at some point in 1862 that many of my brigade figures would suddenly rout-- it would be "graphically instantaneous" and 12-15 would apparently rout at the same time. I thought, "W.T.H" and tested this for several turns with the same type of result in quick battle. This even occurred one time where I was the defender with a fort with 60K men and the attacker had 30K men and won. I then started reviewing the size of my brigades and noted the rule on page 72: "Units with low Strength (below 1000) must always make this (morale) check." Essentially although I had a lot of men in different brigades, given their strength was below 1000 many of them would fire for one round and then rout with no chance of return to the battlefield.

Obviously this isn't a bug and I understand the thinking behind the design decision, but since I didn't have turned on advanced supply, these brigades would not build to strength quickly, and despite the fact I had a 2:1 superiority in a defensive battle with a fort, I still lost because of this particular "100% morale check rule below 1,000 strength."

I'm not sure what the answer to resolving this is, though I don't think the present mathematical formulas result in realistic outcomes when individual brigades are "understrength." I note you cannot combine brigades (I don't know if this is ahistorical-- CW not my war...) but that would solve the problem. Perhaps changing 1,000 to 500? Perhaps instead of 100% checking for understrength check 50% of the time? At minimum, it would help if in the data screen for each brigade in QB if we were shown the number of men in each brigade. At least then I could put understrength units in a charge mode or in the rout boxes to begin with.

It would be a shame if my assessment here were wrong and it really was a bug, but I don't think so...

Regards,

LeBlaque

[Gil R.]

If you disband a brigade the men are redistributed among the other brigades in that division. (I think this was done post-release, in this patch. Perhaps try it to see if it solves your problem.)

[christof139]

I disband Bdes. a lot to get others up to strength.  I even disnanded my 'Great Chris Bde.' once.  I cried, but I did it.  Dem bums.  Chris

[ericbabe]

I didn't want players easily to be able to switch strength from one brigade to another.  This didn't happen very much in the Civil War, and in the cases when strength was transfered between brigades it was more likely to happen with the transfer of a whole regiment.  Also from a game-balance point of view, I didn't want players to be able easily to transfer strength from units with poor guns and no special abilities to units with good guns and excellent abilities.

[christof139]

I didn't want players easily to be able to switch strength from one brigade to another. This didn't happen very much in the Civil War, and in the cases when strength was transfered between brigades it was more likely to happen with the transfer of a whole regiment. Also from a game-balance point of view, I didn't want players to be able easily to transfer strength from units with poor guns and no special abilities to units with good guns and excellent abilities.

Yeah, but when Bdes. get down to 300 men and under 1,000, it's better to disband them in order to fill up other Bdes. I just change the names of Bdes. if I want to.

Actually, the CSA started consolidating units in 1862, particularily Infantry units, and many were also disbanded with personnel being amalgamated with other disbanded units to form new units. Happened on a very regular basis. After the large numbers of troops captured at Ft. Henry, Island No. 10, Vicksburg and Port Hudson were exchanged, many of the original units they had belonged to were not reformed and those troops were used as replacemnts for other new and existing units. Same thing occurred in the USA forces, particularily just before and during the 1864 campaigns but also earlier to a lesser degree.

Sifakis' Compendium of Confederate Armies and other works such as Individual Unit Histories and various reports in the OR clearly show this. Since FoF doesn't use regiments and battalions and independent companies, then brigades are the only type of unit we can disband. So, this disbanding in FoF is an accurate representation of what actually did occur with many regiments, battalions, independent companies and squadrons, and arty. batteries and battalions. You have no choice except to disband because the units depleted below 1,000 do get tossed about. I have used units with strengths of 600-800 or so as 2nd line and reserves and flankers with success, but when they drop below 600 then they usually get disbanded. Another thing is to put all your low strength Bdes. in one particular divisional container and try to get that divisional container at or near the top of your container stack or seperate it from the rest of the containers in order to increase the chance of filling up the depleted Bdes. Seems the AI likes to sometimes fill up some depleted Bdes. to 4,000 and only disperse a few number of replacements to other units. Of course the container with the depleted Bdes. in it should be placed on high supply it seems, and other containers on lower levels of supply, seems that also helps to fill depleted Bdes., I don't know. FoF system works as it is.

Oh, I also took someone's advice here and use conscripts and mustered troops to fill up my old veteran depleted units. When this is done it seems as if the qualities of experience and morale of the newly filled veteran units do drop a bit, but I am not sure if this is the actual case or not.

Chris

[LeBlaque]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I didn't want players easily to be able to switch strength from one brigade to another.  This didn't happen very much in the Civil War, and in the cases when strength was transfered between brigades it was more likely to happen with the transfer of a whole regiment.  Also from a game-balance point of view, I didn't want players to be able easily to transfer strength from units with poor guns and no special abilities to units with good guns and excellent abilities.

Eric I appreciate your's and Chris' response below, I tried Gil's suggestion and Bge resources when disbanded are NOT re-distributed, they are lost. Consequently the QB issue I noted above is, I believe, still valid. I lost a defensive battle with 60K men and a fort to a 30K force largely due to this "rout bug." I think it appropriate to be able to disband brigades and redistribute resources as noted by Chris, but I also certainly agree with your game-balance point of view. Perhaps a "game-way" to address this is to re-distribute disbanded units back to the national pool. In this way I wouldn't lose the men and redistributing to all brigades would address your balance issue.

Alternately, and perhaps additionally, I still believe the rout formulas could be tweaked from the 100% morale check at 1,000 staff to some other percentages/#. Frankly, having given some thought to this formula, I find it a bit problematic, as it "morale penalizes" the Union. Essentially since the Union is a 3,000 Strength brigade and the Confederacy a 4,000 person brigade the Union will only lose 2/3 of their force versus the Confederacy losing 3/4 of their force before they must "100% rout check." I might suggest that to solve the aforementioned problems that the formula be changed that when the brigade loses 50% of their Strength (60%, etc?) then they face their rout check. This percentage would replace the 1,000 figure now used.

Finally, I think it important to add the Strength number to the "Brigade Data Box" in the Quick Battle.

Regards,

LeBlaque

[christof139]

Finally, I think it important to add the Strength number to the "Brigade Data Box" in the Quick Battle.

Regards, LeBlaque

Also, it would be nice to be able to see what container/unit your Bdes. belong to in QC, but I don't know if Command Control is used in QC and whenther this is relevant.

Chris

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: LeBlaque
Eric I appreciate your's and Chris' response below, I tried Gil's suggestion and Bge resources when disbanded are NOT re-distributed, they are lost.

Huh, I just tried this and it worked fine. Did you do it with a brigade that was already in the division or one that was joining it that turn (if the latter, it may have disbanded before joining)?

Regards.

- Erik

[LeBlaque]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Huh, I just tried this and it worked fine. Did you do it with a brigade that was already in the division or one that was joining it that turn (if the latter, it may have disbanded before joining)?

These brigades were already in the Division and had been for some time. I've tried it several times. I tested both larger and smaller brigades disbanding to see "where the forces would go" and they would always just disband, LOSING the respective men (e.g. a division of 9K down to 6K). I tried it with a Cav versus an Infantry brigade. I also tried disbanding a division to see if the men in the division would be redistributed to all brigades in the Corp. What occurred there was that the Division disbanded and the brigades left the Corp Container on the strategic map and I had to "reinsert them" that turn (btw, this seems fine). Bottom line, I am NOT getting the same results you are getting as it relates to disbanded brigades-- losing the men completely or getting re-destributed to other brigades, to the national pool, or anywhere else. I've definately installed the patch (exe is 3/16/07). In my other post on the fleet, you can look at the CSA game file I posted and try to disband and see the results. I tested both the containers on the Mississipi and in Kentucky. A question, too: If this works, isn't it contradictory to Ericbabe's game-balancing concerns he noted in this thread?

Regards.

[LeBlaque]

Huh... new information as I begin to learn the interface and all the screens better:

I tried disband AGAIN in a completely CAV division with 3 brigades that started at:
Cav 1 2,811
Cav 2 3,333
Bells Brigade 964

I disbanded Bell's Brigade, hit end turn, then when to the individual Brigade history reports. Lo and Behold, Cav 1 and Cav 2 DID get reinforcements from Bells Brigade, but only 107 each. Further, I found that 107 went to ANOTHER Cav Brigade in the same Corp! (I only had 3 Cavs left in the Corp) However, 964/9=107. I couldn't find what happened to the other six "107s"??? I looked and they weren't distributed to other Cav elsewhere in OTHER armies, etc...

I was originally looking at just container summaries (3K, etc.) and apparently got confused, yet where are the additional resources above? I'll keep testing based on my knowledge of the Detail Reports now...

[Erik Rutins]

Cavalry replacements are reduced to 33% of normal unless you get an upgrade (Cavalry Bureau, I believe?). If you try the same with three infantry brigades and disband one, it should distribute the full amount rather than 33%. At least, that's what I'm seeing here.