Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues

[vahauser]

Alby,
 
You are making a mistake.  The 105mm K 18 FK is a legitimate unit and should be a unit (both on-board and off-board), not a "designer" item.  There were over 1500 of them produced during the war, and they were part of a variety of divisional and non-divisional TO/Es.
 
The 170mm K 18 FK is a legitimate unit and you have both on-board and off-board versions of the weapon.  This is correct and as it should be.  Do not change this.
 
But the 105mm K 18 FK (Rarity 1) was four times as numerous as the 170mm K 18 FK (Rarity 2), and the 105mm K 18 FK was a part of more divisional and non-divisional TO/Es than the 170mm K 18 FK.
 
Do not make this mistake.  The 105mm K 18 FK was an important component of the German Field Artillery during WW2 and should not be taken away from the players.  As KED pointed out, it was the main counterbattery gun available to the Germans.  This is important.  The 105mm K 18 FK needs to be represented as an on-board and off-board unit available to the players.  And it needs to be given the range necessary to accomplish its counterbattery mission.
 
[As an aside, I only brought up those ridiculous PzSf IVA and PzSf V weapons to illustrate that if you are going to include them in the game (only 4 prototypes, 2 of each, were ever made) as real units that players can buy whole companies of, then the 105mm K 18 FK should also be a real unit available on-board and off-board to players since the 105mm K 18 FK was an important weapon used throughout the entire Wehrmacht.  I say again, do not make this mistake.]
 
--V

[264rifle]

Those 4 "ridiculous PzSf IVA and PzSf V weapons " Probably knocked out more russian tanks USING DIRECT LINE OF SIGHT FIRE than all of the 105mm K 18 FK and 170mm K 18 FK put together. There may be accounts of these guns being used in direct fire. If so bring them out. IF you want them on board give them a weight of 255. They weren't going to move and fire in the time span af a normal SPWAW game.

Why should the Germans get corrected artillery and NO ONE ELSE?

Save it all for an "ENHANCED ARTILLLERY OOB" and do them all together.

[Alby]

264 rifle is correct.....There are alot of units left out of the game....The Germans have 1 oob of stuff now...and part of the Czech oob.....not to mention they units they have in Belgium, Finland,  and Norway.....so they have more than enough toys.....this gun has never been in the game going all the way back to SP1...I think the game will survive without it...This unit is not even in SPWW2 with all the room they have for extra and duplicate units...... I/we simply cannot add or delete every unit someone wants, we would never be done.....as stated the weapon exists in the German oob, simply add the unit to your own personal set of oobs...
[;)]
 

[Alby]

oops double post...
[:(]

[264rifle]

Let me see if I can explain why these big guns (Of any nation ) should not be on board weapons.

This applies to guns and not most howitzers.

In Ian Hogg's book "German Artillery of World War II" He lists a 17cm railroad gun with the following stats. Shell of 62.80kg and MV of 875mps/2871fps. This gave a max range of 27200 meters. So far so good. But their was a limit in the mounting that prevented firing at below 10 degrees of elevation. This resulted in a MINIMUM RANGE OF 13350 meters or at 50 meters to the hex a minimum range of 267 meters. If we extend this minimum range to other big guns and try to figure "dead ground you will see the problem.

Assume this gun can get down to 5 degrees. Also assume that will cut the range in half. It won't ,the range will be some what over half but this is just for illistration. MINIMUM range now is 6675 meters or 133 hexes. The elevations of hills buildings and woods in SPWAW are somewhat abstract.

5 degrees of elevation is about a 25 foot difference in height at 100yds, 50feet at 200yds, 250 feet at 1000yds. IF your BIG gun is 4 hexes from that stand of trees (is 50 feet in hight really that unreasonable a height for a stand/grove of trees?) then the minimum range of the gun is 133 hexes. Since the game engine can't figure this out it lets you hit every hex on the map with indirect fire.

Now I can swallow the smaller feild guns and howitzer on the map. some reasons are.

1. Their shorter ranges ment that they could have at least hit some of the hexes on the map tha they couldn't see due to obstuctions.

2. They were normally sited closer to the front lines than the big guns. They were actually used in direct fire situations on more than "RARE" occasions.

3. Their set up and take down/hook up times are more inline with with the game turns. The German 10cm gun traveled with the gun tube unhooked from recoil system and pulled back over the trails. Quite a few other large German, French, Russian and other guns did the same thing. When unloaded the crew had to use a winch or rope and pulleys to pull the tube back into position and reconnect the recoil cylinder rods.

For playability reasons and game engine limits I can easly see the smaller artillery on the map

IMHO the big 'GUNS" do not belong on the map.

[vahauser]

264rifle and Alby,

The Germans produced more 105mm K 18 field guns than the British produced 4.5" field guns.  So why do the British get their 4.5" field gun on-board and the Germans do not?

If you are going to do something, than you should be consistent.  I don't personally care whether the German 105mm K 18 FK is an on-board unit or not.  That is not the point. 

My POINT is that if you are going to have all those other field guns in the game as on-board units, then the German 105mm K 18 FK should be an on-board unit too because more 105mm K 18 field guns were produced than many of the field guns that are on-board units today.  THAT is my point.  If you want to remove all field guns of 100mm and larger from on-board play, then that's fine. 

But to discriminate against the 105mm K 18 FK is not only inconsistent, it is sloppy and historically inaccurate.  Especially when the 170mm K 18 FK is left in the game as an on-board unit and the Germans produced four times as many 105mm K 18 field guns as 170mm K 18 field guns. 

[264rifle]

Are the british getting their 4.5 feild gun which should range to just about the same distance as the German 10cm K18 or are they getting their 4.5 howitzer which should range to about what a 12cm mortar does or are they getting some bizzare "GAME" comprimise/average??

If the British had space for two weapons I would vote to to get the 4.5 Howitzer early in war (on board) and the 4.5 gun later and off board.

You want consistancy???

Are you counting both types of British 4.5 guns? are you counting the 426 American 4.5 in guns on 155 howitzer carriages?
The Americans made 1,969,000 (for their own and British use) 4.5 shells so unless there was a huge stock pile some where, somebody was firing these things.

How about making the British 25pdr range just one step more than the German 105 howitzer??? It out ranged it in real life but not in the game.

By the way the British 4.5 Howitzer was used by Poland and Romania (world war I left overs) but maybe not Belguim.

Straighting out the artilley is a whole project in itself and should not be done on a peicemeal "I want my favorite,now" basis.

[Alby]

pretty sooon I am gonna remove all heavy guns from onboard....lets see what evryone says then....
[:D]

[Goblin]

My recommendation is to just rename the German 105mm gun that is currently in the game to '105mm gun'. Then it can include any 105mm gun that people want.
 
My second recommendation is for people to start churning out mods with their preferences, or at least using the OOB editor to 'correct' their own OOB's. If this requires purchasing books and/or doing alot of research, so be it.
 
It just seems pointless (to me) to keep arguing over this stuff. [;)]
 
Just my 2 coppers. [:)]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Goblin

My recommendation is to just rename the German 105mm gun that is currently in the game to '105mm gun'. Then it can include any 105mm gun that people want.

My second recommendation is for people to start churning out mods with their preferences, or at least using the OOB editor to 'correct' their own OOB's. If this requires purchasing books and/or doing alot of research, so be it.

It just seems pointless (to me) to keep arguing over this stuff. [;)]

Just my 2 coppers. [:)]

Second that.....
I renamed a couple of my units to suit me,(American Assault Gun units), but other than the subject of certain arty/mortar effectiveness, I have no problem requiring any changes..
As Goblin mentioned, it does require a lot of books and research, (along with help from the forum..)[:)]

[vahauser]

ORIGINAL: Alby

pretty sooon I am gonna remove all heavy guns from onboard....lets see what evryone says then....
[:D]

Alby,

Even better would be to make on-board field guns of 100mm or larger 'designer-only' weapons.

[vahauser]

Goblin & m10bob,
 
Artillery is badly in need of standardization and normalization across all 27 nations.  Creating a zillion personal mods is not the answer.  Creating a complete overhaul of the artillery, especially ranges, across all 27 nations by an 'official' person or team of persons is what is needed. 
 
For example, the Canadian 4.5" gun is the longest ranged weapon in SPWAW (at 248 hexes) that I know of, even longer ranged than heavy naval guns (at 240 hexes).  Personally modding this kind of stuff is not the answer.  The SPWAW community as a whole deserves a well-researched, well-thought-out, and well-implemented overhaul of the artillery across all 27 nations.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Goblin & m10bob,

Artillery is badly in need of standardization and normalization across all 27 nations.  Creating a zillion personal mods is not the answer.  Creating a complete overhaul of the artillery, especially ranges, across all 27 nations by an 'official' person or team of persons is what is needed. 

For example, the Canadian 4.5" gun is the longest ranged weapon in SPWAW (at 248 hexes) that I know of, even longer ranged than heavy naval guns (at 240 hexes).  Personally modding this kind of stuff is not the answer.  The SPWAW community as a whole deserves a well-researched, well-thought-out, and well-implemented overhaul of the artillery across all 27 nations.

I for one would not want to see "anything over 100MM" removed from on map games, too many guns used IRL up close, like the American M7, Stug howitzer, Soviet 152's, etc..
Lots of Bulge battles evolved around over-run American arty batteries.

Do accurate ranges of off-board units effect only "counter battery fire"?
(Surely they should have no bearing on accuracy at multi-miles range on this scale?).

[Goblin]

I agree. Since 'off-map' could be 50m off map, having a gun on-map makes no difference. For me, my guns are 50m off-map. I'm the commander, I get to pick. I sometimes have my boys wheel them forward 50 or 100m, and oops, they are on-map now.[X(]
 
 
 
 
vahauser - since anything that comes from users is a personal mod, there is no difference if people make their own mods. Unless one is adopted as the official OOB by Matrix (unlikely due to reverse compatability issues with Megas), then who cares?
 
It doesn't bother me in the least that a gun that could fire the width of 3 or 4 maps is off on its range. I do not get the constant harrassment of guys that did make their own mod, saying they simply 'MUST' do something, when everyone has the ability to 'fix' their own OOB's if they deem there is a mistake, or something that simply MUST be fixed.
 
 
Goblin

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: Goblin

I agree. Since 'off-map' could be 50m off map, having a gun on-map makes no difference. For me, my guns are 50m off-map. I'm the commander, I get to pick. I sometimes have my boys wheel them forward 50 or 100m, and oops, they are on-map now.[X(]

vahauser - since anything that comes from users is a personal mod, there is no difference if people make their own mods. Unless one is adopted as the official OOB by Matrix (unlikely due to reverse compatability issues with Megas), then who cares?

It doesn't bother me in the least that a gun that could fire the width of 3 or 4 maps is off on its range. I do not get the constant harrassment of guys that did make their own mod, saying they simply 'MUST' do something, when everyone has the ability to 'fix' their own OOB's if they deem there is a mistake, or something that simply MUST be fixed.


Goblin

Good point Gobby....actually I wasnt serious about removing them......too much damn work....[:)]

[264rifle]

m10bob.
 >Do accurate ranges of off-board units effect only "counter battery fire"?
(Surely they should have no bearing on accuracy at multi-miles range on this scale?). <

Part of my point. IF......IF.....this artillery revamp ever gets done, it should be with some assurance that the numbers in the editer do what we think they do. Other wise we might be creating new problems.

[vahauser]

Goblin,
&nbsp;
What about the people who are designing scenarios and campaigns?&nbsp; There needs to be a 'standard' that everybody uses.&nbsp; Right now there are two 'standards':&nbsp; SPWAW 8.40, and Enhanced DV.&nbsp; Everybody who deviates from one of those two 'standards' by creating their own MOD cannot design scenarios/campaigns that are realistically usable by everybody.
&nbsp;
This is why personal MODs just won't work on a large scale.&nbsp; The artillery needs to be overhauled at the SPWAW 8.40 or Enhanced DV level.&nbsp; That way everybody can use them and scenarios/campaigns will be compatible with them.&nbsp; And since Matrix is finished with SPWAW, then that leaves the artillery overhaul to be done at the Enhanced DV level.
&nbsp;
And while your concept of off-board = 50m off the edge of the map works for you, your way of thinking does not actually apply to the way the game actually handles counterbattery fire.&nbsp; Ranges really do matter.&nbsp; And if the ranges are incorrect, then not only does that serve to&nbsp;invalidate claims that the game is 'historical', it also affects actual game mechanics such as counterbattery fire.&nbsp; Further, I've seen game maps that are 240 hexes north-to-south.&nbsp; Correct ranges matter.&nbsp; This is not an issue for personal MODs.&nbsp; This is about making the game as historically accurate as possible.
&nbsp;
It concerns me that some people (not necessarily you, Goblin) seem content to gloss over this issue, even though they know that the artillery ratings are messed up.&nbsp; The current case of the German 105mm K 18 FK is a good example.&nbsp; This gun was as important to the Germans as the 4.5" gun was to the Allies.&nbsp; In some respects it was even MORE important to the Germans than the 4.5" gun because it was the only practical counterbattery answer the Germans had against the Allies/Soviets.&nbsp; It mattered!&nbsp; And yet, this gun is being treated by folks on this forum&nbsp;as though it were some piece of trivial nonsense.&nbsp; It is being given the red-headed-stepchild treatment.&nbsp; But the historical Germans sure cared about this gun.&nbsp; They needed it!&nbsp; They manufactured over 1500 of them.&nbsp; This was not some failed prototype like the PzSF IVA and PzSf V.&nbsp; The Germans mass-produced a high-quality field gun that outranged the British 4.5" gun by 1,000 to 2,000 yards (that's a mile, by the way, which does make a difference).
&nbsp;
I personally do not care about the 105mm field gun.&nbsp; This is not a personal crusade.&nbsp; I have no ego invested in it one way or the other.
&nbsp;
But what I DO care about is that the gun be considered within its historical context.&nbsp; If SPWAW is supposed to be all about history, then trivializing an historically important weapon is irresponsible at best.&nbsp; And treating it as some second-class afterthought is a disservice to the SPWAW community who deserves the most historically accurate ratings possible.

[Goblin]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Goblin,

What about the people who are designing scenarios and campaigns?  There needs to be a 'standard' that everybody uses.  Right now there are two 'standards':  SPWAW 8.40, and Enhanced DV.  Everybody who deviates from one of those two 'standards' by creating their own MOD cannot design scenarios/campaigns that are realistically usable by everybody.

This is incorrect. Players will play what they like. If they like someone's mod, they will use it. Alot of people use ENH, but I would wager that the majority do not (probably because they are unaware of it, or have not tried it). I do not speak of forum posters, but of people who play the game world-wide. No one is going to be able to design a scenario 'usable by everybody', no matter which version (vanilla, ENH, 7.1, Leo's H2H, 5.0, etc) they design it for, because the players themselves all like something different. The designer must pick which HE likes, and design for it. The players liking a specific mod will be searching for scenarios for that mod, and will download it. If they don't like that mod, they won't do it.

Like I said, if the artillery is that horribly bad, design a mod and put it out there. If people who really cannot stand the oddities see it, they will likely try it. If they like it, they will download scenarios designed using it.

[Goblin]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Goblin, .

And while your concept of off-board = 50m off the edge of the map works for you, your way of thinking does not actually apply to the way the game actually handles counterbattery fire.  Ranges really do matter.  And if the ranges are incorrect, then not only does that serve to invalidate claims that the game is 'historical', it also affects actual game mechanics such as counterbattery fire.  Further, I've seen game maps that are 240 hexes north-to-south.  Correct ranges matter.  This is not an issue for personal MODs.  This is about making the game as historically accurate as possible.

It concerns me that some people (not necessarily you, Goblin) seem content to gloss over this issue, even though they know that the artillery ratings are messed up.  The current case of the German 105mm K 18 FK is a good example.  This gun was as important to the Germans as the 4.5" gun was to the Allies.  In some respects it was even MORE important to the Germans than the 4.5" gun because it was the only practical counterbattery answer the Germans had against the Allies/Soviets.  It mattered!  And yet, this gun is being treated by folks on this forum as though it were some piece of trivial nonsense.  It is being given the red-headed-stepchild treatment.  But the historical Germans sure cared about this gun.  They needed it!  They manufactured over 1500 of them.  This was not some failed prototype like the PzSF IVA and PzSf V.  The Germans mass-produced a high-quality field gun that outranged the British 4.5" gun by 1,000 to 2,000 yards (that's a mile, by the way, which does make a difference).

Most people (myself included) don't give a flying flak what 105mm gun is in a given position. That's why you are having difficulty persuading people that ANOTHER 105mm gun must be added to the game. The lesser produced weapons you continue to mention have no bearing on their feelings. If there were two or four 170mm guns already in the game, or even one in a given OOB, then you would face the same lack of concern from people if you demanded another be added to that same OOB. Armored vehicles should not even be reflected in the same category as artillery, since most people want the 'what-if' or designer units included in the game. Especially considering you could simply go to your OOB editor and add the 105 yourself. Done/fixed. Demanding that others fix their mod is awful presumptuous/pompous.

If you want the ranges fixed, you should be harassing Matrix about it, not a member(s) who made a mod. Pester them to fix the max ranges, and the maximum number of units in the game too, so that more may be added. Thats the only way you will get an official correction. It won't work, but that is the proper target for you. Since they have dropped support for the game, it is up to players to design mods. Alby/Kevin are players, no higher/lower than you. You have just as much of an opportunity to create a mod and get it used as they did/do.


Goblin

[azraelck]

I wonder if you realize, that Alby, Flash, and all the others who work on the Enhanced mod are NOT paid to do this. If you had actually done any historical research, you'd know that it's a long, drawn out, and difficult process. Even a cursory examination of equipment and tactics is long and drawn out. It is highly arrogant to demand a 'fix' that you can't really find a justification for, beyond "Wah! The British 4.5" (disregarding for the mockery the multiple 4.5"ers) is on board! I want my Kraut 105mm in as on board as well!" The German OOB does have some lacking parts historically. When the game engine is updated to allow for more units, weapons, and formations, then that might be fixed.

If you want something done, either do it yourself (make the mod) or create enough legitimate interest that Matrix rethinks it's position on supporting SPWaW. They ain't getting paid either, as it's a free game for the most part (unless you want the mega campaigns), so it would take a lot to convince them of anything to do with the old girl. Best you might hope for is a SPWaW 2. Insisting that people who actually have nothing to do with the game outside of a love of it and the study who spent their time and effort to do something for the game to reinvigorate it do what you want is only going to annoy people.