8 Man Indoor Project

[garysorrell]

Im really enjoying the Indoor game, and think that if it were really given a good going over it could be fantastic.

Im going to start working on a series of Team Profiles, Playbooks and Plays. It would be cool to see how far the 8 man 50 yard fight could be taken.

Things I plan to do are, but not limited to:

1)Building playbooks with personality(via groups)
2)Making plays that
....take advantage of multiple motion
....make running the ball a viable and effective option
....translate well to the US and Canadian fields if desired
3)Create Team profiles that draft for
....Pass, Run, balanced, Defensive, etc.


I want to see how much variety you can get using 20 man rosters. Ive tried 40 man rosters with the 8 man game and its a bit much for me.

I am also going to look at player ratings. With a 20 man roster, there will be 2-way players. Put a 99 speed anybody at RB and it gets ugly. It may be necessary to slow some positions down, to avoid every other play being a sweep for big yards.

Also, there may need to be some rules a person would set on their own, that arent an option in the game. Like motion. 1, 2, 3 or whatever...how much motion do you allow. For this project I may go with 2.

Anyway, anyone interested in helping, let me know. Im fine to work alone, but more is always better.

[SmilinJack]

Gary I'm interested in maybe making some Team Profiles and help with playbooks.

My first big challenge with my indoor leagues was ...why run the ball? I too wanted to create a balance. The sweep has to be deadly or why run? It is all about scoring and scoring alot. If you run you lose, unless the lead is well in hand.

Also, just a question on the real AFL rules...are running backs eligable to catch the ball? I always thought they had to stay in the backfield. I know the Jack and Mack backers have limitations...unless that has changed in the last couple of years.

I can try books and Team prof if you need me. Tell me what you are looking for and I'll try and help.

I usually try to make numerous plays out of the same formation. Also, I don't use motion but I can try.

Jay

[SmilinJack]

Also, a quick note. In the AFL only one backer can blitz from the front or back side (must stay on his side of the center) and the other backer must stay in the box unless there is a run outside.

Do you want me to make defenses that stick to these restrictions, only straight one backer dogs and and the Mack must always read the RB?

This could be intersting?

Jay

PS do you want to get indoor football as real as possible or as strategic as possible?

[garysorrell]

Well, im really open to anything on this. What I would like to see more than anything is a few good playbooks and some good team profiles. We've seen a lot done for the outdoor game already. I dont think i've seen much of anything for the 8 Man stuff.

It's possible to create run plays that move the ball. I've watched CPU games where they have 100yd games per team and the score is as high as normal. And that was with the full default defense and about 4 pass and 6 run plays.

I would say a good way to approach this would be similar to the way some of the FBpro leagues do it, and the VPNFL stuff.
Set some groundrules and design plays, playbooks, and profiles around that.

Im an Arena fan, but not all that familiar with specific rules. If we can mimic most of them in Max, im all for realism.
Obviously years of trial and error has led to the rules as they are in the AFL, must be something to it.

Would you want to follow the AFL as best we can? Im all for that. We cant design things to cover every eventuality. So if its stated from the outset that this is an attempt to get the MaxFB Indoor game to be as close to the AFL style as possible, that would be fair warning and disclaimer.

[garysorrell]

This is from the CBS AFL website

Rules

*The Field
An indoor padded surface 85 feet wide and 50 yards long with eight-yard endzones.
Goal posts are nine-feet wide with a crossbar height of 15 feet (NFL goalposts are 18 1/2 wide with the crossbar at 10 feet).
The goalside rebound nets are 30 feet wide by 32 feet high. The bottom of the nets are eight feet above the ground. Sideline barriers are 48 inches high and made of high density foam rubber.

*The Equipment
The official football is the same size and weight as the National Football League ball. Each ball is manufactured by Wilson Sporting Goods.

*The Players and Formations
Eight players on the field; 20-man active roster; four-man inactive roster.
Players play offense and defense with the exception of the kicker, quarterback, offensive specialist (the kick returner on defense) and two defensive specialists.
Substitution: All non-specialists may substitute only once during each quarter.
Four (4) offensive players must line up on the line of scrimmage.
Three (3) defensive players must be down linemen (in a three of four-point stance). One linebacker may blitz on either side of the center. Alignment is two (2) or more yards off the line of scrimmage. No stunting or twisting.
Offensive motion: Once a receiver may go in forward motion before the snap.

*Timing
Four 15 minute quarters with a 15-minute halftime.
The clock stops for out-of-bounds plays or incomplete passes only in the last minute of each half or when the referee deems it necessary for penalties, injuries or timeouts.
Each team is allowed three (3) time-outs per half.

*Movement of the Ball and Scoring
Four (4) downs are allowed to advance the ball ten (10) yards for a first down, or to score.
Six (6) points for a touchdown.
One (1) point for a conversion by place kick after a touchdown, two (2) points for a conversion by drop kick and two (2) points for successful run or pass after a touchdown.
Three (3) points for a field goal by placement or four (4) points for a field goal by drop kick.
Two (2) points for a safety.

*The Kicking
Kickoffs are from the goal line. Kickers may use a one-inch tee.
Punting is illegal. On fourth down, a team may go for a first down, touchdown or field goal.
The receiving team may field any kickoff or missed field goal that rebounds off the net.
Any kickoff untouched which its out of bounds will be placed at the 20-yard line or the place where it went out of bounds, whichever is more advantageous to the receiving team.

*Passing
Passing rules in Arena Football are the same as outdoor NCAA Football in which receivers must have one foot inbounds. A unique exception involves the rebound nets. A forward pass that rebounds off of the endzone net is a live ball and is in play until it touches the playing surface.

*Overtime Rules
Overtime periods are 15 minutes during the regular season and the playoffs.
Each team gets one possession to score. If, after each team has had one possession and one team is ahead, that team wins. If the teams are tied after each has had a possession, the next team to score wins.

[garysorrell]

Here is a wiki link for indoor football, other leagues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoor_football

[garysorrell]

AFL

[SmilinJack]

Great stuff!

OK, so playbooks as closely related to the real AFL? I've started designing some plays and defenses already, once I've the plays, then the books and profiles.

I haven't tried but can the tackle in MAXFB 8 man be eligable?

That would be really cool.

If I edit my TeamPos to change the player monikers, i.e., T/TE FB OS etc... We can get a pretty nice recreation of the sport.

I'm on it.
Jay

[SmilinJack]

one more thing. I'll try to use one man motion on everyplay usually the slot.

Jay

[SmilinJack]

I currently own the 25th anniversary AFL history book. It's in storage. I'll dig it out and read the rule changes, rules etc. It has every season, player, coach, arena etc...great resource for us...and records!

[garysorrell]

Sounds great. I was watching the Dallas/Philadelphia game last night. I must say, the real game is pretty much a score fest. Ive watched Arena football for years, just not much recently.
Not much defense.

One man motion sounds good. Not sure on the tackle eligible issue.

How about the Linebacker in the box....I think we can simulate that. With the wait command.

[SmilinJack]

I already have defenses that simulate that pretty well. LB in the box I mean.

I've been swamped with real life work, so things will trickle for me for a little while but I'm on it.

I will work on the plays and books though everyday.

Jay

[SmilinJack]

The AFL is much like basketball. It is the STOPS that really make or break a defense. The best way to look at AFL defenses are stops or percentaged of scores per opponent possession. Just the opp of 100 yard football. Scores happen outdoor about as much as stops in the indoor.

Jay

[garysorrell]

I think making a team kick a FG is like forcing a punt in the indoor game.

Im not much on defense at all, could you send me one of your defensive plays? Love to see how you set one up.

I have a wife and 3 kids, so I understand the 'trickle factor'.

I think that the mere fact a couple people are working on Indoor playbooks is enough. Understandably most of the attention has gone to the outdoor US game.


I am working on a few team profiles. I will probably have them done soon. They focus on team speed and 2-way DBs....I had a team where I had 6 DBs playing both ways(DB/WR). Worked well.

I will say, I design for played out games, not sims.

[SmilinJack]

Hi,

I will send you a few plays tomorrow.

Yeah, I realized David's sim produces less plays and therefore lower scores. I tend to mix some real time games and some sims.

However, I noticed one thing that would easily fix David's quick sim engine.

Regardless of the league and play clock his game always averages a play every 40 seconds. An NFL game averages about 62-65 plays per game per team...125-135 plays a game (not counting punts and fg attempts these are plays from scrimmage) David's averages about 45-55 per game per team (counting punts and fgs). If he tweaked his clock engine to 25 to 30 seconds per simmed play we'd have a much closer scores and plays (on average).

I noticed this really effects the indoor game from sim to real time results. My friends and I see about 15%-25% (sometimes 50% more) higher scores when watching over the course of a season that is a big number discrepancy. Between our real time games and the sim. Understandable on a 50 yard field but the sim needs to mirror this fact.

Canadian and US it is just not as big a deal.

Sim and count the plays divide them by total seconds of the game and it is always approx 40 sec, give or take a tenth of a, regardless of the play clock. So, a 25 second play clock for indoor is irrelevant for the quick sim and therefore creates a divide between watching and simming.

No big deal. But it might bring his sim slighlty closer to a coached game or watched game.

Part of my fix for this I use a 45 second clock in my league to slow the real time games down...kind of helps.

NOT A COMPLAINT...AN OBSERVATION.

I love the game.

Jay

[SmilinJack]

I forgot...do to my last rant...

I use Key HB/FB/QB on the backers to keep them in the box; if the back runs they are in play...if a back goes out for a pass they follow. This seems to work pretty well...I don't like the WAIT FOR here because they will stand with an unacceptable reaction time; however, we can come up for rules regarding this before I build too many defensive plays. First, I like KEY QB because there is always a QB in the game and not always a FB or HB, and second, the backers will react to the play fairly well.

Let me know what you think.

Jay

[garysorrell]

The Key sounds fine. Like I said earlier, im not much on the defense yet. Havent really tried making any plays so im not familiar. Your way sounds good. We arent going to get 'perfect', but close is good enough.

I hadnt noticed the timeclock issue. Very interesting.

[garysorrell]

It says in the pic above that one of the 3 OL is the TE....think we may have to edit something to do that, teampos maybe.....unless we leave that up to users to set a TE there in the depth chart.

[SmilinJack]

Gary,

Yes I've thought of editing the TeamPos for OSDS, TE at OL and RB,HB as FBs and maybe Jack Backer and Mack Backer...JB and MB. Then make my formations and plays.

I know this will at least better label the on field players as positions to help future 8 man players with playbooks and depth charts?

However, David would need to incorporate a changed TeamPos into his future releases or we provide a download of our Teampos.dat for interested parties.

Anyway...Should we first agree on a TeamPos and share that and build plays from there or do you want to use the provided TeamPos and just use the default form?

Probably wiser to use the default.

I'm going to focus on defensive plays first and provide them to you or FBMAX. Then we can put together books and profiles using your offenses and my defenses? That might save us time and provide the best possible plays on both sides of the ball.

Jay

[garysorrell]

Sounds good. I have a better grasp of the offense than I do defense, for whatever thats worth

I think that default is good for now. It would be better for the majority of users. No modding required.