Enhanced DV Artillery OOB Issues

[vahauser]

Okay Okay.  I get the message.  Nobody cares that the artillery ranges and units in the game are historically incorrect.  Artillery is artillery.  It's just a game.  Nobody cares.  I got it. 

[m10bob]

No, IMHO you still do not understand.
Your very first post started with "Alby, you are making a mistake."(quote).
Not "in your opinion", just a flat statement.
We are mostly adults here, and many (like yourself) have been around long enough to understand we each have the ability to mod our own OOB's..We also have the ability to have our games loaded on our HD's under different names, (or even use Modswapper) which was created just for those who appreciate variations on a theme.
Personally, I have always modded my own OOB's because I have never seen a single OOB pack as good as the one I have in my head,(real or imagined/percieved).
That said, I don't think it proper to get in the communal pool and piss to warm the water to my body temperature, somebody else might not want THEIR water "warmed"..
We are all friends here, and have (over the years) learned from one another and appreciated each others contributions, without having the feeling we are being forced to accept something.
We ourselves choose to download a program, or use it, or not..

[vahauser]

m10bob,
 
Yes, Alby is making a mistake.  That is a fact, not an opinion.  How many other guns in the game do not have have both on-board and off-board representation?  None that I know of.  So when Alby said that he was going to make a special exception in the case of the 105mm K 18 FK and not give it on-board representation and only off-board, then that is a mistake.  Even the 170mm K 18 FK has both on-board and off-board representation, and the 105mm K 18 was four times more numerous than the 170mm K 18.  By treating the 105mm K 18 as a special case, that is a mistake because the 105mm was not a special case historically.  It was a numerous and very important weapon in the German inventory.  It was part of a variety of divisional TO/Es.  How many other guns that were part of divisonal TO/Es are treated as off-board only with no on-board representation?  It's a mistake.
 
But you know what?  I told Goblin that since nobody else cares about the 105mm K 18 FK (or the overall artillery mess in general), then I won't care either.  I DO get it.  Nobody cares.  I WANT to care, but what's the point?  If nobody else cares, then I'm just howling at yet another moon.  Someday, if somebody else cares about the mess the artillery is in, then I might start caring, too.
 
You have a bee in your bonnet because you think that I was politically incorrect regarding my tone and attitude towards Alby.  I guess Alby appreciates you standing up for him.  I like Alby personally.  I am grateful for everything (well, mostly everything) he has done to make SPWAW better.  And I want to let this issue settle down.  Let's call a truce, okay?

[Goblin]

vahauser is right. Let's not start bashing him. Both viewpoints have been made, and since each player prefers different things, which is right? Neither and both. TRUCE! [8D]

vahauser - I really do think you should work on some of the things you have issue with and put out a mod. You obviously have the passion for it, and would probably make a good one. If it is a game engine issue with how arty ranges work, it might be a moot issue though. I have no clue how it works...

[&:]




Goblin

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Yes, Alby is making a mistake.  That is a fact, not an opinion.  , okay?

yes by getting involved in this in the first place..
[:(]

[Goblin]

ORIGINAL: Alby

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Yes, Alby is making a mistake.  That is a fact, not an opinion.  , okay?

yes by getting involved in this in the first place..
[:(]

You stay out of this.

[:'(]

[vahauser]

Alby,
 
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. 

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: Goblin

ORIGINAL: Alby

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Yes, Alby is making a mistake.  That is a fact, not an opinion.  , okay?

yes by getting involved in this in the first place..
[:(]

You stay out of this.

[:'(]

<------[&:]

[:D]

[Goblin]

[azraelck]

tm.asp?m=1436696

I have a question. If you do not have the historical data to verify this, how are you so certain you are 100% correct. I don't know myself, and I neither doubt or can confirm your stance on the gun in particular, but if you by your own admission have nothing to work on a mod in the way of historical data; then how are you 100% certain of your stance? Can you give us any sources (printed or on the web, I always love a new read. But I prefer books[:D].)?Again I can't confirm or deny this, nor will I, as I have other obligations than buying 20 books on WWII-era artillery to fix a game that at present time I can't even play because I don't have Windows on my computer at all. I also don't want to start up another flame war, this is a simple question that you can ignore if you want.

I don't think the real issue was ever with your stance, but in your way of insisting that Alby was wrong and he should fix this. Alby and the rest of the enhanced team should do as they damn well please; they have given innumerable hours to this community freely already, and no one can legitimately hold it against them for mistakes or for a reluctance to work on the mod anymore. Particularly when they're getting flak about it already.

It's like me insisting that Matrix is wrong for not porting the old gal to Linux, and to hop to it NOW, soldier! I can do it, but it's presumptuous to say the least, arrogant and selfish. I may be the only person to ever want this game on Linux, and I can only say that because I left Windows to go to a more stable OS. I don't regret that choice in the least, but at the same time I lost many favorite games; so I'm planning on re-setting up my computer to run a dual boot instead of complaining about and to people who don't get paid to do something that I want. I can't even complain to the makers of Wine, the open source Win32 implementation for Linux, that lets Windows programs run in Linux. It's all free, and done by people working for free. I can report bugs as best I can, and if my programming skill was up to it maybe even help fix some of them, but I can't complain, because there wouldn't BE a Wine or a SPWaW enhanced or anything like this is some individuals weren't of the character to work for free.

[264rifle]

Alby and Flashes "Mistake" is that they didn't correct ALL of the OTHER&nbsp;mistakes that have 'crept in/been added to' the game over the many versions by peaple trying to CORRECT what they saw as mistakes.
&nbsp;
For two guys working in their spare time, for free, even with some help from others to catch every single goof that was in the original game and the multitude of changes since then is more than a little unrealalistic. Some goofs may have been in the game for 2,3,5 or more versions.
&nbsp;
As I have said before:
&nbsp;
IF we can get a little guidence or explianation on what some of the numbers in the editor do or how they affect game routines and
&nbsp;
IF we can get some sort of consensus on a 'range table'*1 &nbsp;for off board use and
&nbsp;
IF we can get some sort of consensus on just how long a setup time*2 &nbsp;for a gun should affect it's on board performance
&nbsp;
THEN we can do a good job of an "artillery mod".
&nbsp;
Until then, making spot mods that just might have be redone seems like a waste of effort.
&nbsp;
*1. decide what should be the max range that should be represented as "true range". 5000yd gun gets 100 50yd hexes. we already have a problem because a 5000 meter gun gets an extra 10 hexes? then decide how many yards per "range band" to use up the range "slots " that are left. Should range bands get larger as the ranges go up? A pair of opposing guns that have only a 1000yd (or less) difference might fall into 2 different bands, should they be "ajusted" to fall in the same band or not?
&nbsp;
*2. Since the game has the same set up time for all artillery (and heavy machine guns) and there is nothing we can do about it should we just accept this game flaw or should we restrict some of the big artillery? Some of the rally big stuff travelled with the gun barrel detached from the recoil system.. some travelled with the barrel on a seperate transporter. some of them, even if travelling in one peice might take several hours to set up. DO they belong on the game board?? do they belong on board but unable to move?
&nbsp;
P.S. should there be on-board firing restrictions?
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

[vahauser]

264rifle,
&nbsp;
Perhaps when FlashFyre returns he can shed some light on the points you raise.
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
[Regarding the mistake Alby is about to make concerning the 105mm K 18 FK:&nbsp;
I really want to let this issue rest.&nbsp; But what I've been saying all along is that if we can prevent a mistake from happening BEFORE it "creeps into the game", then shouldn't we do that?&nbsp; I repeat, I truly appreciate what Alby and Flash have done with Enhanced.&nbsp; I really do.&nbsp; Can we let this issue rest now?&nbsp; Please?]

[chief]

azraelck:

I may be in error but I believe Flashfyre plays this game in LINUX, I could swear I read it in this or Depot Forum. FWIW Dept 85za98

[azraelck]

Which variation? :p There's at least a half dozen major distros floating around, with the horde of lesser variations intertwined. Then there's the various versions of each distro. SuSE10.1 is a far cry from 10.2. Trust me, I found out the difficult way.

[chief]

AZRA..... ask him I'm not familiar with LInux....Good Luck

[FlashfyreSP]

Back from Florida, guys...

Quick and dirty replies:

I used to play on a Linux box (before it died) with Suse 9.x, and used a helper program from a Linux game site (can't remember what it was now) that gave more control over the WINE emulation.

Artillery ranges in the game are mostly SWAGged, fudged for the game routines and the numeric limitations of the mid-90s computing era. Counterbattery fire is abstracted in-game, with Max Range being the determining factor (OBA with longer range will counterbattery OBA with a shorter range). Maximum range value in the OOB is 231, or 241 hexes (12,050 meters). So quibbling about ranges in excess of this is just that, quibbling.

The unit in question is a 10cm schwere Kanone 18, and its inclusion in the game will probably have to come from someone else; I am tired of the OOB work for now, and am not going to argue for or against adding another artillery piece to an OOB that already has sufficient representation.

[vahauser]

FlashFyre,
&nbsp;
The Canadian 4.5" gun has a range of 248.&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Also, if Alby has already added the 105mm K 18 FK to the German OOB while you were away, then you don't have to do anything, right?
&nbsp;
--V

[FlashfyreSP]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

FlashFyre,

The Canadian 4.5" gun has a range of 248.

Also, if Alby has already added the 105mm K 18 FK to the German OOB while you were away, then you don't have to do anything, right?

--V

Not in my OOBs: Canada has 2 4.5" weapons, one of which is used for the UK Oversupplied Artillery unit. Neither has a Max Range greater than 231.

1. Units #115 & #145 both use the 4.5in OBL FG weapon, which has a Range value of 231, the maximum value allowed.
2. Unit #186 uses the 4.5in OQF FH weapon, which has a Range value of 216.

[vahauser]

This is straight from the Enhanced DVRN Encyclopedia:
EDIT: I meant to say the Canadian Enhanced DVRN Encyclopedia:

[vahauser]

The above was the off-board Canadian 4.5" gun.

Here is the Canadian Encyclopedia Enhanced DVRN on-board 4.5" gun: