Misclassified PCs

[el cid again]

CHS and RHS Seminole class PCs (Class slot 427 Ship slots 4864 to 74)

were fleet tugs. Their armament is entirely guns - so they can hardly be PCs - even

in the game version.

While fleet tugs are not in the game, I have reclassified them as PG - which they may have
been able to double as. Other tugs did this - and some of these are at distant points when the
war begins and might be useful

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

CHS and RHS Seminole class PCs (Class slot 427 Ship slots 4864 to 74)

were fleet tugs. Their armament is entirely guns - so they can hardly be PCs - even

in the game version.

While fleet tugs are not in the game, I have reclassified them as PG - which they may have
been able to double as. Other tugs did this - and some of these are at distant points when the
war begins and might be useful

They (as a sidenote: actually 'Navajo Class' fleet tugs) had two depth charge rails.

[el cid again]

It may be. While I looked them up, ASW armament is often not listed - for a long time ASW was classified.
But even in the game version they had none. And without sensors - they would not be useful as PCs. I am not sure we should be including fleet tugs at all - but there is one other (also US) case - and these ships (like those) were often at forward points of interest - and may represent a major fraction of local naval power (such as they are). So I left them in. But what matters about them is their guns - IRL and in operational terms.

Which brings up a question: did the Higgans ASW "boats" have any sensors? 6 made it to the NEI and 2 others might have - serving in stead in the Caribbean.

[m10bob]

Wonder if there is any way to make the game respond to the presence of "fleet tugs" in a fleet?..If so, it might allow a damaged ship to maintain a speed, rather than drifting to a stop when taking on water??...Just a thought.....
Seems possible to me since the "Dewey Dry Dock" with "0" "speed" is capable of movement with escorting vessels.

[JWE]

Hi Cid,

Thanks for bringing up the blivets in CHS. In my version, I will try to incorporate the inconsistencies you bring up; I'm redesignating the Yawata, Niita and Kasuga Marus in accord with their noted follow-on specifications; trying to get a grip on commercial ship names from surviving shipping company records (about 75% satisfied, but what the hey).

For some of the other vessels, I wonder if we are not trying to finely divide a cole slaw. The code seems to look for a <type> when populating a TF; similarly, the code looks for a <type> and a <device> when calculating ASW results.

I have not been able to determine any difference between DD, DE, PG, PC, DM, DMS, etc., when it pertains to ASW combat. The code just looks at "type numbers" that are allowed to make up particular TFs and then aggregates their ASW (# of depth charges, etc.) values. If the vessel can populate a TF, dut doesn't have an ASW value, she functions as a target.

Basically, I do not see any practical distinction between types, except for their ability to participate in TF <types>.

The code is simplistic: it determines a type of <combat>, looks for ship <types> that can participate in that combat, evaluates the weapons, <devices>, that play a part, and applies an algorithm to determine a result. If a sailing schooner is able to escort, she will be part of the mix, even though her weapons are no more than 4 hand grenades. The algotithm treats her as effect = 0.

I understand the imperitive to classify certain ships in certain ways, perhaps in ways different from their RL application. I believe their capabilities should be viewed with respect to the game code, rather than a not particularly relevant specificity.

Just a thought.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Wonder if there is any way to make the game respond to the presence of "fleet tugs" in a fleet?..If so, it might allow a damaged ship to maintain a speed, rather than drifting to a stop when taking on water??...Just a thought.....
Seems possible to me since the "Dewey Dry Dock" with "0" "speed" is capable of movement with escorting vessels.

Never thought of that. Probably a ship with 0 speed is allowed to move one hex - regardless of speed. As when a ship is damaged. But no - there is no provision for towing. A somewhat unfortunate thing - as it matters.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Hi Cid,

Thanks for bringing up the blivets in CHS. In my version, I will try to incorporate the inconsistencies you bring up; I'm redesignating the Yawata, Niita and Kasuga Marus in accord with their noted follow-on specifications; trying to get a grip on commercial ship names from surviving shipping company records (about 75% satisfied, but what the hey).

For some of the other vessels, I wonder if we are not trying to finely divide a cole slaw. The code seems to look for a <type> when populating a TF; similarly, the code looks for a <type> and a <device> when calculating ASW results.

I have not been able to determine any difference between DD, DE, PG, PC, DM, DMS, etc., when it pertains to ASW combat. The code just looks at "type numbers" that are allowed to make up particular TFs and then aggregates their ASW (# of depth charges, etc.) values. If the vessel can populate a TF, dut doesn't have an ASW value, she functions as a target.

Basically, I do not see any practical distinction between types, except for their ability to participate in TF <types>.

The code is simplistic: it determines a type of <combat>, looks for ship <types> that can participate in that combat, evaluates the weapons, <devices>, that play a part, and applies an algorithm to determine a result. If a sailing schooner is able to escort, she will be part of the mix, even though her weapons are no more than 4 hand grenades. The algotithm treats her as effect = 0.

I understand the imperitive to classify certain ships in certain ways, perhaps in ways different from their RL application. I believe their capabilities should be viewed with respect to the game code, rather than a not particularly relevant specificity.

Just a thought.

GG loves simple models, but he also loves modifiers and variations. ASW is no exception and in some ways may be more sophisticated than you would guess.

First - side matters. A Japanese ASW ship is not as effective as the same type in USN.

Second - different types have different values. DEs are more effective than DDs for example. And DDs are more effective than PC as another. Probably a few other cases are in there too - but we are not told. For example, is an SC = to a PC? Probably (just as all MSW are equal - the worse minesweeping boat = the best minesweeper). It may be anything with DCs = a PC - even CL and other wierd ships drop DC from time to time. I rationalize this in the form of "PCs have hydrophones, DDs have sonar, DEs have sonar and specialize in ASW and are actually competent at it".

So I take your view - and think in terms of what code does. If a vessel has no sonar or hydrophones IRL, it should not get any DC in the game - because IRL DC were just decorations - but the game - with no sensors per se - will treat it as if it detects a terget it could not IRL. Or so I surmise. As a tester (in the analytical rather than the playtest sense) I semi-understand how things work. Often programmers will say "you have succeeded in working out how this works without seeing the code." One programmer says the way code interacts is sometimes more clear to testers than to code writers, because what really happens may not be entirely what was planned or intended.

[JWE]

I take your point.

I just don't know what to do about it. I'm utterly clueless. If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them. Even if you don't and just have some general conclusions, I would like to hear those as well.

[el cid again]

I missed your point. What do you want suggestions about?

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Wonder if there is any way to make the game respond to the presence of "fleet tugs" in a fleet?..If so, it might allow a damaged ship to maintain a speed, rather than drifting to a stop when taking on water??...Just a thought.....
Seems possible to me since the "Dewey Dry Dock" with "0" "speed" is capable of movement with escorting vessels.

Never thought of that. Probably a ship with 0 speed is allowed to move one hex - regardless of speed. As when a ship is damaged. But no - there is no provision for towing. A somewhat unfortunate thing - as it matters.

Also no provisioning for underway repair assistance from salvage/repair vessels. Having some fleet tugs around to tow cripples would be an appreciated improvement.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Wonder if there is any way to make the game respond to the presence of "fleet tugs" in a fleet?..If so, it might allow a damaged ship to maintain a speed, rather than drifting to a stop when taking on water??...Just a thought.....
Seems possible to me since the "Dewey Dry Dock" with "0" "speed" is capable of movement with escorting vessels.

Never thought of that. Probably a ship with 0 speed is allowed to move one hex - regardless of speed. As when a ship is damaged. But no - there is no provision for towing. A somewhat unfortunate thing - as it matters.

Also no provisioning for underway repair assistance from salvage/repair vessels. Having some fleet tugs around to tow cripples would be an appreciated improvement.

Same vein...Would the presence of an AR improve a ships damage control parties,(in real life)?

[el cid again]

Ships - at least warships - can help each other. Two US destroyers had a collision at the entrance to Midway
Island - one bow hit the other mess deck amidships - killing two sailors there. A nearby LPH (USS Guam? - anyway Guam class) not involved heloed in damage control parties in strength to rig a false bow on one ship - it is a long way to Pearl from Midway. This worked out well - except that three helicopters crashed when returning the DC parties to the LPH - all hands lost except a petty officer who refused to board the third helo after seeing two crash.

The original problem was that a DD standing out of Midway was on 'the wrong side of the road' - and the second DD
(USS Waddell DDG-24, my ship) was advised by its radar plot not to stand in. The captain felt junior officers needed experience - and was not on the bridge. The OOD ordered the ship in - and as a result a collision ocurred. Waddell had the unique distinction of being in a collision as well as one other accident in the same year she won every possible efficiency award. [Getting junior officer's experience has some merits as well as risks] In this instance, the chief radarman feared no one would believe the radarmen had recommended not standing in, so he closed the CIC log, and went to ECM where he directed "Lock this log in the safe. Change the combination of the safe. Guard the safe. Do not open the safe for anyone, including me or the captain, until directed to do so by a naval board of inquiry." A remarkable order - resulting in an interesting three days for the ECM team!

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I missed your point. What do you want suggestions about?

I thought, from your prior, "GG loves simple models, but he also loves modifiers and variations. ASW is no exception and in some ways may be more sophisticated than you would guess." that you were suggesting the model is not quite as I thought. From your comments that some types are more effective than others, it would seem that some suggestions as to how this is implemented in the model would be nice. Thanks in advance.

[el cid again]

I have gone farther than others in the WITP community.

As designed, and in non RHS mods, DEs exist only on the Allied side. I added DE type ships to Axis ships. I depend on the fact that Axis is inferior to Allied in ASW to keep them non-identical.

I also have removed a lot of ASW weapons - even if present - from ships not equipped with ASW sensors at all. I think code may make them = sub chasers - and I didn't want that. I reclassified some vessels as SC and some from SC to PG - to get them more correct in function.

I added a Japanese ahead throwing weapon - a historical one that is interesting - but probably not as good as the US/UK Hedgehog (because it fires only one round for one thing). But it is trainable, and it has a much better warhead - so it is not entirely off track in concept - and some post war weapons may be based on it (see for example Weapon Alpha of USN). I used this weapon on historical ships in the "strictly historical" mods - and on even more ships in EOS (except I took it off of ships it was not useful on - notably a CVE class - in EOS the CVE is a tanker or something like that).

In the BBO scenarios we see different conceptions of what constitutes USN DEs - more speed - bigger guns - fewer ships. [BBO/RPO/PPO] Similarly, in BBO we see the Japanese DDEs built as full DDs. On the other hand, in BBO and EOS we show some other vessels in a better ASW form: notably PGs which use the same hulls as the DEs did. We often put twin 3 inch 60s in place of single 4.7 inch guns - very much like many US DE classes. The 3 inch 60 is the finest gun in its class in the world - second only to the 100 mm as Japan's best gun - and using the very same fire control system (with different cams) as the 100 mm did. A similar US weapon was not in service until after the war ended - but this was actually a PRE war weapon - built in miniscule numbers for reasons wholly unclear. So you get to use different ships - some US DEs with 2 single 5 inch guns (compare with Japanese 2 single 4.7 inch guns) or 2 twin 3 inch guns (both sides). Also the Hedgehog vs the 15 cm DC Projector (that is - a 5.9 inch DC thrower) - in singles and pairs.

After analysis by Ron, I went over to using a pattern system for DC. All identical DC are totaled and the salvo is the sum of them. This assumes 2 (or 3) per rack - one at the beginning and one at the end of the run (and if a really big pattern one in the middle of the run as well). I take 2 times Y guns (they throw two DC each) plus 1 times K guns (they throw 1 DC each) plus 2 times DC racks = pattern. Big patterns are typically 10 or 12 DC each. This is the salvo size - and it makes ASW vessels more effective than other ways to set up the weapons do.

I studied DC and attempted to rate the DC for a ship in terms of the weight and effectiveness of the real ones - using the nearest game one. I also have gone over to using 100 kg DC as the norm for aircraft in Japan - because it was - a very small DC.