Guess one must trust the Japanese Player!

[spence]

I've just begun playing my first PBEM game as the Japanese. After a couple of years playing only Allies I developed some bad habits I guess in handling the turn files. Two is really confusing I guess.

In any case this morning I got the turn from my opponent ran it, made my move and saved. When I opened my email I found another move from my other game (as Allies) and as usual saved the two files.
OOPS. I overwrote the combat replay from my game as Japanese. Well I didn't want to have to make my move as Japanese again so I sent him just the turn file and a profuse apology re the combat replay.

I also offered to load the turn again and send him that replay. I figured it would turn out rather similarly in any case if not exactly the same. WRONG!!!!! The second time through a bunch of things quite beneficial to me occurred that did not occur in the original; to wit: a Dutch naval force did not engage at Kuching at all when it had previously dinged up Takao and a DD quite nicely without much damage in return (FOW so I'm not sure of the latter part - didn't look like I hurt them much anyways), a US merchie ate 3 torpedos near the HI, and Kuching fell (this was the biggie I guess).

In any case it would appear that the Japanese Player can load the turn over and over until he gets a particularly good result and then make his move and send it to his opp (never thought about this before). I guess one needs to have a great deal of faith in their Japanese opponent's integrity.

[Blackwatch_it]

I happened to have to rerun the combat as japanese some times and it was exactly the same.
Did you check the combat report file? did it chage too?

[spence]

The combat report got overwritten too when I ran the turn file from my Japanese opponent. I'd played around in testing stuff in H2H and against the AI and repetition of the combat phase seemed only to result in very minor changes: like 28 casualties instead of 26 in a land battle. This was a surprise since the results of the second run thru were so different.

I suppose if I had not loaded and run the combat replay from my other game then the original combat summary would have been preserved. The point is that that was completely at my discretion as the Japanese Player.

[DuckofTindalos]

I think you need to be able to trust the other guy, whichever side he plays. We saw recently here what happens when it turns out you shouldn't have trusted someone...[:(]

[spence]

Trust is nice. For the Allied Player to have some independent way to verify results would be nicer.

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, you can play with Fog of War off, I suppose...

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: spence


I've just begun playing my first PBEM game as the Japanese. After a couple of years playing only Allies I developed some bad habits I guess in handling the turn files. Two is really confusing I guess.

In any case this morning I got the turn from my opponent ran it, made my move and saved. When I opened my email I found another move from my other game (as Allies) and as usual saved the two files.
OOPS. I overwrote the combat replay from my game as Japanese. Well I didn't want to have to make my move as Japanese again so I sent him just the turn file and a profuse apology re the combat replay.

I also offered to load the turn again and send him that replay. I figured it would turn out rather similarly in any case if not exactly the same. WRONG!!!!! The second time through a bunch of things quite beneficial to me occurred that did not occur in the original; to wit: a Dutch naval force did not engage at Kuching at all when it had previously dinged up Takao and a DD quite nicely without much damage in return (FOW so I'm not sure of the latter part - didn't look like I hurt them much anyways), a US merchie ate 3 torpedos near the HI, and Kuching fell (this was the biggie I guess).

In any case it would appear that the Japanese Player can load the turn over and over until he gets a particularly good result and then make his move and send it to his opp (never thought about this before). I guess one needs to have a great deal of faith in their Japanese opponent's integrity.

After you replayed the combat, did Japanese turn reflect the first combat or the second. Was Kuching actually in your possesion? The reason I ask is a couple of times I've done the same thing as you. Only once did I have a different combat turn, but the turn itself represented the first combat resolution.

[marky]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I think you need to be able to trust the other guy, whichever side he plays. We saw recently here what happens when it turns out you shouldn't have trusted someone...[:(]

[8|]

[spence]

Well, you can play with Fog of War off, I suppose...

You're missing the point here...it's not the replay bug or a perception issue. The Japanese player can reload the turn into the game from his email an infinite number of times until such time as the combat results satisfy him because they at least can be very different.

After you replayed the combat, did Japanese turn reflect the first combat or the second. Was Kuching actually in your possesion?

Yes it was Japanese. Didn't bother to check on any other particulars. Just told my opp that his DDs done good in the first go round and Kuching was still his (cause I sent him the original turn file) asked him to make his move secure in those assertions.

[stldiver]

I thought the turn should turn out exactly the same unless he made changes before sending you the turn again. In which case the combat results will vary.

[spence]

As the Allied Player one can load the replay file as many times as you like and unless the replay bug is biting it will turn out identically. It is basically just a recording of what the Japanese Player saw.

But as the Japanese Player one loads only the turn file. The random (or not) numbers are apparently generated during the program execution thereafter. The random numbers can and should change from one execution to the next so the results should be different. The Japanese Player therefore has the option apparently to just keep "rolling the dice" til it comes out the way he likes; then sends that particular rendition on to his opponent who will be none the wiser.

I haven't any reason to think that any IJN opponent of mine has ever done this. But it seems a possibility for which there seems to be no solution other than trusting the integrity of the Japanese Player. It's a mechanics issue that could be a game breaker.

[ChezDaJez]

The random numbers can and should change from one execution to the next so the results should be different.

Hi, Spence

I just tried that three times and got the same results three times in a row. I dowloaded my opponent's turn from my email each time, ran it and got the same result.

I always thought that the random seed was generated at the end of the allied players turn and based on this very limited tedt, it would appear, to me at least, that this is still the case.

Interesting that you should get different results.

CHez

[spence]

I guess I'll test some more. Perhaps this is some kind of replay bug. Never heard of the Japanese Player seeing a funky replay though.

It is my experience that when the replay bug bites the Allied Player ALWAYS SEES A BETTER OUTCOME FOR THE TURN (FOR THE ALLIES) than actually pertains. That is one similarity between what happened today and past (Allied) experience only this time it would have been a better outcome for the Japanese than the original turn that we're going to continue on.

[AmiralLaurent]

The random numbers are generated on the Allied computer but I think that for reasons similar to the replay bug for the Allied, the Japanese player may not use the good number and so obtain different results. I have never seen that (and I have replayed several turns since I have WITP for the same reason than you, overwriting the combat replay before sending it).

As a rule, after each turn, you should exit WITP and relaunch it to deal with another turn. This will reduce significantly or even totally this kind of problems, and is also rumored to affect the leader bug and teleportation bug and so on. I should say that I always did that (exiting WITP after each turn) and in my PBEM saw a far littler amount of bugs than what are reported on the forum.

Anyway you're basically right in that you need to trust your opponent. I remember playing BTR as an Allied. In this case you give orders and send the turn to an Axis player that will react to it on "real time", except that he can watch the turn to learn the Allied plan, then redo it and react on the best possible way. I had once an opponent that was really too good to be honest.

[Yamato hugger]

All you have to do is reload the file he sent you, run the turn and when it stops for your orders send the 001 and the combat.txt files. Problem solved. The combat is actually a part of the file the allies sent you. You (as the Jap) can re-run that combat replay a million times and it will ALWAYS be the same.

[spence]

Well I reloaded the turn 3 times. Dang, I even captured Hong Kong on 2 out of 3 tries. Anyways the turns turned out similar but not identical. Here anyways are the results for reloads #2 and #3 (1 and 2 seemed to be identical). Well I guess I have to upload #3 as a seperate post.

[spence]

Here's the 2nd one.

[spence]

At any rate you will see that I captured both Kuching and Hong Kong in #2 but captured neither in #3. (Glad I didn't need to run it any more times since it's past my bedtime.[:)]

[Yamato hugger]

Do you actually control Hong Kong in both them after the replay? What you have here "shouldnt" be possible without changing something in the allied turn and re-running. Are both those replays from the same file?

[spence]

Run thru #4 this morning: Got Kuching this time but not Hong Kong...and notice there was no naval battle. Screen shot coming up.