Rules Clarification List

[composer99]

Neutral countries cannot get partisans. I'm at work so I don't have RAW in front of me to cite, but it's in there somewhere.

[Mziln]

Since I have shown you that Eastern Poland is a territory (per the RaW). And Poland not Eastern Poland is where Polish partisans are placed.
 
Any questions on placement of partisans would be in the conquered minor power of Poland and not the conquered territory of Eastern Poland. 
 
Enter is not the same as placed. To enter a hex you have to move. Placement requires no movement points.
 
Even if you use placed as entered the partisans would be "moved" to the nearest friendly hex not in the common border.
 
“The controlling major power can place a partisan unit in any enemy controlled hex in its country that is not in an enemy ZOC. If there are no such hexes, put the partisan back into the force pool”.
 
 “After you enter into a neutrality pact with a major power, units controlled by other major powers on your side cannot enter hexes that are part of your common border with that major power if they are at war with that other major power. If they are in the common border already, move them immediately to the nearest friendly hex not in the common border in which they can legally stack”.
 
In this case the conquered minor power of Poland.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Neutral countries cannot get partisans. I'm at work so I don't have RAW in front of me to cite, but it's in there somewhere.

13.1 Partisans (option 46)

Getting partisans

Paragraph 2

Each of those countries named on the chart on a green background is eligible if it has been conquered or if any of its hexes contains an enemy unit. Note: “France” means Occupied France after a Vichy government has been installed (see 17.1).

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

ORIGINAL: composer99
Neutral countries cannot get partisans. I'm at work so I don't have RAW in front of me to cite, but it's in there somewhere.

13.1 Partisans (option 46)

Getting partisans

Paragraph 2

Each of those countries named on the chart on a green background is eligible if it has been conquered or if any of its hexes contains an enemy unit. Note: “France” means Occupied France after a Vichy government has been installed (see 17.1).

Perhaps I was not clear enough, for which I apologize. The post to which I was replying was this one:

I have a question regarding partisans. Sometimes when we have played, the roll for partisans have been a '10' while the Netherlands are neutral. Does this mean that a partisan should be set up in NEI(which is a red country)? If yes, who controls the partisan? We have had quite a few discussions on this topic and house-ruled that no partisan should be set in a country that no major power controls. The problem, as I see it, is that no major power is eligble to control the partisan. We would greatly appreciate your views on this topic since we find that RaW under these circumstances is very fuzzy...

As I said, I do not have the RAW on hand at the moment, but I am quite certain that under RAW no partisans can appear in neutral countries, whatever their status on the partisan table. If someone else doesn't come up with the citation, I will when I get home.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: Mziln

ORIGINAL: composer99
Neutral countries cannot get partisans. I'm at work so I don't have RAW in front of me to cite, but it's in there somewhere.

13.1 Partisans (option 46)

Getting partisans

Paragraph 2

Each of those countries named on the chart on a green background is eligible if it has been conquered or if any of its hexes contains an enemy unit. Note: “France” means Occupied France after a Vichy government has been installed (see 17.1).

Perhaps I was not clear enough, for which I apologize. The post to which I was replying was this one:

I have a question regarding partisans. Sometimes when we have played, the roll for partisans have been a '10' while the Netherlands are neutral. Does this mean that a partisan should be set up in NEI(which is a red country)? If yes, who controls the partisan? We have had quite a few discussions on this topic and house-ruled that no partisan should be set in a country that no major power controls. The problem, as I see it, is that no major power is eligble to control the partisan. We would greatly appreciate your views on this topic since we find that RaW under these circumstances is very fuzzy...

As I said, I do not have the RAW on hand at the moment, but I am quite certain that under RAW no partisans can appear in neutral countries, whatever their status on the partisan table. If someone else doesn't come up with the citation, I will when I get home.

Neutral countries have not been conquered nor do they usually have any hexes containing enemy units.

[composer99]

Yes, but I was thinking of something a little more explicit and also covers the case of red countries on the partisan table.

In any case, Mziln's citing is enough to go on for your purposes, oscar.

[composer99]

Vis-à-vis partisans in NEI while the Netherlands is still neutral, the passage from RAW that I wanted to cite is as follows:
 
13.1 Partisans (Option 46)

[...] Each country named in bold italics on a red background is eligible [to receive partisans] if it is controlled by any active major power.

 
So, in the situation you describe, oscar, since NEI is not controlled by an active major power while the Netherlands is neutral, it is not eligible to get partisans.

[oscar72se]

Thanks for the answer guys. I can't believe that our entire group of 9 people missed that paragraph! But since we ruled NEI not to be eligble for a PART I am happy anyways.
 
So, let's say that Germany declared war on the Netherlands, the turn ends and a PART pops up in NEI. According to RaW the red PART is at war with the controller, in this case CW which in turn would mean that Germany controlls the PART. So, if the german player places the partisan in let's say Batavia or some oil resource, does the PART eliminate the notional unit in case that Japan wishes to invade that particular hex? Does a red PART in this way cooporate with a major power at war with the country that the PART is in?

[Frederyck]

"13.1 Partisans
Partisan effects
Partisans only co-operate with other units from their own country"

So no, the partisan in question would only co-operate with NEI-troops. But this in itself is problematic, though, as NEI-troops are controlled by the Commonwealth and the Partisan is controlled by Germany. Interesting. [:)]

If Japan wishes to invade a Partisan-occupied Batavia, they would have to fight both the notional and the Partisan. The same actually goes for the very unlikely scenario that Germany would invade Batavia. [:D]

[oscar72se]

To summarize the example above.
 
A PART is created in NEI, after GE DoW on Netherlands but  before JA DoW on Netherlands. Japan DoWs Netherlands and the following situation arises:
- The PART is controlled by Germany
- It cooperates with CW
- It is at war with Japan (since PARTs are always at war with the conquering MP)
 
Looks like these PARTs are pretty confused [:D]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Frederyck
"13.1 Partisans
Partisan effects
Partisans only co-operate with other units from their own country"

So no, the partisan in question would only co-operate with NEI-troops. But this in itself is problematic, though, as NEI-troops are controlled by the Commonwealth and the Partisan is controlled by Germany. Interesting. [:)]

If Japan wishes to invade a Partisan-occupied Batavia, they would have to fight both the notional and the Partisan. The same actually goes for the very unlikely scenario that Germany would invade Batavia. [:D]

The more common example is the Indian partisans controlled by the Axis. But all the Red partisan countries are like this. They do not like whoever controls the country. As soon as control of the country changes (e.g., it is conquered), the partisans switch sides - or at least that is my understanding of RAW.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

Thanks for the answer guys. I can't believe that our entire group of 9 people missed that paragraph! But since we ruled NEI not to be eligble for a PART I am happy anyways.

So, let's say that Germany declared war on the Netherlands, the turn ends and a PART pops up in NEI. According to RaW the red PART is at war with the controller, in this case CW which in turn would mean that Germany controlls the PART. So, if the german player places the partisan in let's say Batavia or some oil resource, does the PART eliminate the notional unit in case that Japan wishes to invade that particular hex? Does a red PART in this way cooporate with a major power at war with the country that the PART is in?

If Japan wants to invade the NEI, that means that Japan is at war with the NEI (or the CW if the NEI are aligned to the CW).
This, in turn, means that the PART in the NEI are controlled by the Japanese (from the moment that the Japanese are at war with the NEI).

*****************************
13.1 Partisans
(...)
Controlling partisans
(...)
Partisans in ‘red’ countries are controlled by the nearest major power currently at war with the major power that controls the country. The nearest is the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor’s capital city.
*****************************

The PART in the NEI, only cooperate with NEI troops, independently on who control them.
*****************************
Partisan effects
(...)
Partisans only co-operate with other units from their own country.
*****************************

[Froonp]

The more common example is the Indian partisans controlled by the Axis. But all the Red partisan countries are like this. They do not like whoever controls the country. As soon as control of the country changes (e.g., it is conquered), the partisans switch sides - or at least that is my understanding of RAW.

This is right :

They switch sides :
**********************************
13.1 Partisans
(...)
Controlling partisans
(...)
Partisans in ‘red’ countries are controlled by the nearest major power currently at war with the major power that controls the country. The nearest is the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor’s capital city.
**********************************

And are not removed from the map at conquest :
**********************************
13.1 Partisans
(...)
Partisan effects
(...)
Partisans are not removed from the map either when their country or their controlling major power has been conquered. Even if their controlling major power has been completely conquered, partisans can still move and fight every turn as if their controlling major power had chosen a land action.
**********************************

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

To summarize the example above.

A PART is created in NEI, after GE DoW on Netherlands but  before JA DoW on Netherlands. Japan DoWs Netherlands and the following situation arises:
- The PART is controlled by Germany
- It cooperates with CW
- It is at war with Japan (since PARTs are always at war with the conquering MP)

Looks like these PARTs are pretty confused [:D]

No confusion.
As soon as Japan is at war with the NEI, the PART leaves German control and goes under Japanese control.

When Japan will have conquered the NEI, the part will switch to CW control, so the Japanese would better have placed the PART in a place where it is not a problem for him.

[Frederyck]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

As soon as Japan is at war with the NEI, the PART leaves German control and goes under Japanese control.

Correct. I forgot about the change in control. But the scenario is still correct - if Japan tries to invade the partisan-filled Batavia, they would have to fight both the notional and the partisan, even though the partisan is controlled by the axis.

And as Steve pointed out, the event that a partisan co-operates with units it is at war with does pop-up at times in India.

[oscar72se]

So, red PARTs are essentially anarchists? [:D] I guess that the german player would initially place the PART in a hex that prevents any NEI units from blowing up oil wells. After a JA DoW on Netherlands the PART would propably perform suicide by an assault or start walking towards the japanese 8-3 25th Reserve Corps...
 
Anyways, I think that the following phrase should be rewritten:
13.1
...
[font=verdana]Partisans are always at war with the conquering major power (and it's aligned minors) even if the partisan's controlling major power is not at war with the conquerer[/font]
[font=verdana]...[/font]
[font=verdana][/font] 
[font=verdana]I think it is a little bit "strange" that the RaW allows a player to control units that he/she formally is at war with. My interpretation of red PARTs is that they represent "freedom-fighters" who wants to overthrow the controller of the country/territory where they reside. Therefore I think that the paragraph above should distinguish between red PARTs and green ones. Just a thought... [:)][/font]

[Mziln]

(First a description of what the NEI is)

13.3.2 US entry options

43. CW reinforces the Netherlands East Indies

“The Netherlands East Indies is a minor country consisting of all the 1939 NEI-controlled hexes in the Bay of Bengal, Bismark Sea, East Indian Ocean, South China Sea and Timor Sea. Its capital is Batavia.”

Now lets pour some gasoline on the fire. Here is the scenario:


5.1 Trade agreements

Netherlands

The Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the Commonwealth, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan (see 13.3.2, entry option 31).

A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.


Option 31 Oil embargo has not been implemented.



With Germany is controlling the partisans in the NEI.

Would a "red partisan" is in Palembang block only the shipments of oil from the NEI to the CW? 


  
With The CW are controlling the partisans in the NEI. 

Would "red partisans" in Palembang, Balikpapan, and Tarakan block only the shipments of oil from the NEI to Japan?

if 2 oil cannot be shipped to Japan will this also block oil shipments to the CW from the NEI? 



Does China or Japan control partisans in the NEI if the Netherlands is conquered?

“Partisans in ‘red’ countries are controlled by the nearest major power currently at war with the major power that controls the country. The nearest is the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor’s capital city. If no major powers are at war with the controlling major power, then the nearest major power on the other side runs the partisans.”

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The choice of phrasing about the NEI oil seems to indicate that 2 oil go to Japan and what ever else remains goes to the CW. If partisans are interfernig with the oil shipments, then the CW suffers - Japan still gets its 2 oil points. I guess the Japanese cried 'dibs' first.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The choice of phrasing about the NEI oil seems to indicate that 2 oil go to Japan and what ever else remains goes to the CW. If partisans are interfernig with the oil shipments, then the CW suffers - Japan still gets its 2 oil points. I guess the Japanese cried 'dibs' first.

This is right.
Japan is served first, CW takes what's left.

[Froonp]

Does China or Japan control partisans in the NEI if the Netherlands is conquered?

“Partisans in ‘red’ countries are controlled by the nearest major power currently at war with the major power that controls the country. The nearest is the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor’s capital city. If no major powers are at war with the controlling major power, then the nearest major power on the other side runs the partisans.”

If Japan conquer the NEI, China controls the Partisans, right.