AI for MWiF - China

[paulderynck]

OT question: Where is the yellow city dot for Wuhan?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

OT question: Where is the yellow city dot for Wuhan?

As mentioned somewhere above, the flag in the hex covers the city icon for Wuhan. The city is in the Japanese controlled hex on the rail line (the hex contains the letters 'Wu').

Someone wanted to set up Chinese units in Wuhan, but that is not possible.

[paulderynck]

Never mind - saw the third post about the icons.

Sorry.

[Froonp]

For setup, I would setup the Nationalists in a defensive line in the mountains from about West of Hengyang / Changsha, to Nanning. This defense will be able to adapt to the Japanese threat because the units are more mobile on this map. Either move a little to the north, to the east, to match the enemy's advance. The important thing here is to prevent the Japanese from 2 things : Reaching Chunging, and cutting the Burma Road west of Kunming. If it is cut east of Kunming, this is not a problem, as the CW oil and / or lend lease will still be able to arrive in Kunming.

I would setup the 2 Nationalist CAV in the mountains between this area and the Communist area (in the mountains between Ichang & Chunking) (What are their name ???). Those 2 CAV would serve to interdict fast moving Japanese troops from dashing into the heartland (the Chungking Plateau). Their mobiliy allow them to press on in the direction that the Japanese will press on.

In the games I played using the old CWiF map, this defense usually managed at hold the Japanese. Here loosing an hex in a bloody battle is less important than in wiF FE, because there are more mountain hexes between the Japanese & Chunking / Kunming.


The only (BIG) problem, is how to setup the Communists.
It would be good to have troops in Yennan & Ankang (1 Nat CAV would be good here), to anchor some form of frontline, and to threaten the would be advancing Japanese (on the Sian-Lanchow Axis) of having their supply cut. But the communist start with few troops.

Defending Sian is a must IMO, but its defenders should withdraw to Tianshui when the Japanese threaten to surround them.
Having the threat of Yennan & Ankang on their side should slow the Japanese down, and allow for a Chinese build up, either in these cities, or in Sining / Lanchow / Tianshui.
The objective of the Communist should be both to survive, and not to loose the last Communist city on the map.

Before the extra cities were added, the Communist was simply killed out of supply as soon as Sian fell, because there was not backup supply source, and the troops were too slow to reach. In that respect, I think that the extra cities were an obligation for the whole Chinese front to mean something.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
For setup, I would setup the Nationalists in a defensive line in the mountains from about West of Hengyang / Changsha, to Nanning. This defense will be able to adapt to the Japanese threat because the units are more mobile on this map. Either move a little to the north, to the east, to match the enemy's advance. The important thing here is to prevent the Japanese from 2 things : Reaching Chunging, and cutting the Burma Road west of Kunming. If it is cut east of Kunming, this is not a problem, as the CW oil and / or lend lease will still be able to arrive in Kunming.

I would setup the 2 Nationalist CAV in the mountains between this area and the Communist area (in the mountains between Ichang & Chunking) (What are their name ???). Those 2 CAV would serve to interdict fast moving Japanese troops from dashing into the heartland (the Chungking Plateau). Their mobiliy allow them to press on in the direction that the Japanese will press on.

In the games I played using the old CWiF map, this defense usually managed at hold the Japanese. Here loosing an hex in a bloody battle is less important than in wiF FE, because there are more mountain hexes between the Japanese & Chunking / Kunming.


The only (BIG) problem, is how to setup the Communists.
It would be good to have troops in Yennan & Ankang (1 Nat CAV would be good here), to anchor some form of frontline, and to threaten the would be advancing Japanese (on the Sian-Lanchow Axis) of having their supply cut. But the communist start with few troops.

Defending Sian is a must IMO, but its defenders should withdraw to Tianshui when the Japanese threaten to surround them.
Having the threat of Yennan & Ankang on their side should slow the Japanese down, and allow for a Chinese build up, either in these cities, or in Sining / Lanchow / Tianshui.
The objective of the Communist should be both to survive, and not to loose the last Communist city on the map.

Before the extra cities were added, the Communist was simply killed out of supply as soon as Sian fell, because there was not backup supply source, and the troops were too slow to reach. In that respect, I think that the extra cities were an obligation for the whole Chinese front to mean something.

Ankang is not Communist controlled and not available for the Communists to set up in.

The setup restrictions on the Communists are that they be within 6 hexes of Lanchow or Sian, but not in cities that are controlled by the Nationalists. I have increased the number of cities the Communists control (adding those that are new to the MWIF map) but that list does not include Ankang. The list is:
Sining, Lanchow, Tianshui, Ningsia, Yennan, Sian, and Tungkwan. By making these Communist controlled at the start of the game, the Nationalists may not setup in them and the Commnists may.

[Froonp]

Ankang is not Communist controlled and not available for the Communists to set up in.

It is not a problem. If the commies want to have Ankang Communist, they just have to setup next to it, and occupy it immediately.

Anyway, this is a position best used for a NAt CAV as I also said.

[trees]

going way back to Patrice's first post in this thread ... if I recall correctly, any objectives controlled by the Chinese Communists are counted towards the Russian victory total?

If this is so, the ChiComms should be run by the Russian AIO along the lines of an aligned minor. The end of the game can see the ChiComms loosely coordinating with the Russians on a race to Shanghai before the Nationalists, or having Russian bombers groundstriking Japanese targets while Mao approaches a Japanese held Vladivostok, for example.

A key tactic for the Nationalists is to use the Shanghai, Peking and Canton MIL units in out of the way flanks that still need to be covered, and/or stacked with other Nationalist units that can take any loss to the hex, as if these units are killed they can never be rebuilt. Conversely the Chungking MIL needs to be in the center of the action as it is strong and cheap, however with the new map it returns to the map farther away than it used to, so it too should probably be treated more as a reserve type unit. The GARRisons should get killed over and over again in any city in the way of the Japanese.

I think with this map I would be tempted to hold the Pearl ? river in front of Canton to force the Japanese to dig me out, and to keep the Japanese Garrison in Canton (they can't afford to garrison it lightly) in a Chinese ZoC so they won't count towards the anti-PARTisan garrison count. If the Japanese built a Mech division I would abandon this idea though. I would also hold the Chang-sha area, and have a few units to help hold the flanks of Si-An. With both sides I would convert the CAV corps to a pair of cavalry divisions for raids in the mountains, and for dealing with such from the other side. The Japanese ones would be backed by ground support factors and later potentially ATR supply and would be difficult to dislodge from almost anywhere.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: trees
going way back to Patrice's first post in this thread ... if I recall correctly, any objectives controlled by the Chinese Communists are counted towards the Russian victory total?

If this is so, the ChiComms should be run by the Russian AIO along the lines of an aligned minor. The end of the game can see the ChiComms loosely coordinating with the Russians on a race to Shanghai before the Nationalists, or having Russian bombers groundstriking Japanese targets while Mao approaches a Japanese held Vladivostok, for example.

A key tactic for the Nationalists is to use the Shanghai, Peking and Canton MIL units in out of the way flanks that still need to be covered, and/or stacked with other Nationalist units that can take any loss to the hex, as if these units are killed they can never be rebuilt. Conversely the Chungking MIL needs to be in the center of the action as it is strong and cheap, however with the new map it returns to the map farther away than it used to, so it too should probably be treated more as a reserve type unit. The GARRisons should get killed over and over again in any city in the way of the Japanese.

I think with this map I would be tempted to hold the Pearl ? river in front of Canton to force the Japanese to dig me out, and to keep the Japanese Garrison in Canton (they can't afford to garrison it lightly) in a Chinese ZoC so they won't count towards the anti-PARTisan garrison count. If the Japanese built a Mech division I would abandon this idea though. I would also hold the Chang-sha area, and have a few units to help hold the flanks of Si-An. With both sides I would convert the CAV corps to a pair of cavalry divisions for raids in the mountains, and for dealing with such from the other side. The Japanese ones would be backed by ground support factors and later potentially ATR supply and would be difficult to dislodge from almost anywhere.

Thanks for your input. I have virtually nothing for the Chinese AIO, other than what exists in this thread.

I have decided to handle all the Chinese units under a single AIO, rather than split them off and somehow associate them with the USSR AIO. Mostly that has to do with Chinese production and supply, but also because the Nationalists and Commnists have a common front against a common enemy (the Japanese). I will use 2 Field Marshal decision makers (FMs) for the Chinese which will have to coordinate with each other along the common front line.

They will also coordinate with other Allied AIOs through their Foreign Liaisons (FLs). That will handle both coordination with the USSR and the CW & USA which may have units working with the Chinese (e.g., Stilwell).

[iamspamus]

I don't know the programing aspect of the game, but seems to me that Chicomms and Nats should be competing against each other and with the Japanese.
Jason

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: trees
going way back to Patrice's first post in this thread ... if I recall correctly, any objectives controlled by the Chinese Communists are counted towards the Russian victory total?

If this is so, the ChiComms should be run by the Russian AIO along the lines of an aligned minor. The end of the game can see the ChiComms loosely coordinating with the Russians on a race to Shanghai before the Nationalists, or having Russian bombers groundstriking Japanese targets while Mao approaches a Japanese held Vladivostok, for example.

A key tactic for the Nationalists is to use the Shanghai, Peking and Canton MIL units in out of the way flanks that still need to be covered, and/or stacked with other Nationalist units that can take any loss to the hex, as if these units are killed they can never be rebuilt. Conversely the Chungking MIL needs to be in the center of the action as it is strong and cheap, however with the new map it returns to the map farther away than it used to, so it too should probably be treated more as a reserve type unit. The GARRisons should get killed over and over again in any city in the way of the Japanese.

I think with this map I would be tempted to hold the Pearl ? river in front of Canton to force the Japanese to dig me out, and to keep the Japanese Garrison in Canton (they can't afford to garrison it lightly) in a Chinese ZoC so they won't count towards the anti-PARTisan garrison count. If the Japanese built a Mech division I would abandon this idea though. I would also hold the Chang-sha area, and have a few units to help hold the flanks of Si-An. With both sides I would convert the CAV corps to a pair of cavalry divisions for raids in the mountains, and for dealing with such from the other side. The Japanese ones would be backed by ground support factors and later potentially ATR supply and would be difficult to dislodge from almost anywhere.

Thanks for your input. I have virtually nothing for the Chinese AIO, other than what exists in this thread.

I have decided to handle all the Chinese units under a single AIO, rather than split them off and somehow associate them with the USSR AIO. Mostly that has to do with Chinese production and supply, but also because the Nationalists and Commnists have a common front against a common enemy (the Japanese). I will use 2 Field Marshal decision makers (FMs) for the Chinese which will have to coordinate with each other along the common front line.

They will also coordinate with other Allied AIOs through their Foreign Liaisons (FLs). That will handle both coordination with the USSR and the CW & USA which may have units working with the Chinese (e.g., Stilwell).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here are 2 screen shots of a quick and dirty set up for the Nationalist Chinese. The Communists would be placed NW of the Nationalists to entend the common front line.

First is the southern portion of the line. I figure it is difficult for the Chinese to contain the Japanese beach heads here because there are so many of them. In stead I set up a line farther back to protect the resource that the Cnaton militia is sitting on. The cavalry is a quasi-reserve in that it could be brought over to help defend if needed - threatening to cut the Japanese supply line.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The middle of the Chinese line. The HQ has a infantry division stacked with it.

[Froonp]

This setup is too much forward for my taste & experience.

The south can be reinforced rapidly and heavily by the Japs, and this setup gives them the opportunity to dash from Canton to Kunming & Chungking, who are IMO the only final objectives (on the south side) of the Japanese Campaign.

The center of the Chinese Setup risks of not having the time to fall back to protect them.

Also, the oil is too much vulnerable here. It should be in Kunming at worse.

[lomyrin]

I agree completely with Patrice's comments above.
 
I would move Chiang to just northwest of Changsha and only place a token delaying force in Chengchow. The Ftr also would go further south and the units East of Changsha would be placed just east and south of Changsha for an easy withdrawal into the mountains to the west and southwest. Changsha itself wold be garrisoned and the oil stored in Kunming.
 
Lars

[trees]

put the oil in some far-off city near the -stan countries

put the FTR in Chungking, the only place where the Chinese can take a double strat bombing hit

I would concentrate on the mountain hex in front of Si-An and it's flank mountain hex; the Japanese will use up their perhaps limited good weather in the fall of 1939 just approaching this region, and their units that start in Manchuria won't be able to help until the spring of 1940.

the Pei/Hsi river junction hex adjacent to Canton is so defensible I wouldn't just give it away, allowing the Japanese to build-up and launch a drive in any direction they wish in the south, which naturally is to the north to open the rail to the resource south of Chang-Sha, so that river junction is the first place to resist this; without access to Indo-China until later in 1940 and a flank threat a drive west-northwest from Canton doesn't gain the Japanese much of anything.




the ChiComms are subject to Russian activity limits and option choice, so if Russia goes to Persia or Finland or is trying to stuff the border in East Poland the ChiComms can be rather inactive at times. this comes up again in 1944 when the Red Air Force needs an air impulse, or if the Russians attempt any activities in the Baltic or Black Seas. I would think it would be easier for the Russian AI to control them as a result rather than trying to make the Chinese AI get along with the Russian one, unless the Russian one simply tells the ChiComm AI exactly how many land moves it can have, but planning for the future could then be pretty tough. and who prioritizes whether it is more important to cover a flank of Si-An, or reinforce some Soviet adventure somewhere?

since I think the AI overall will be most do-able as a purely one Human vs Computer, one side each, it won't matter as much how the ChiComms get worked out, but if each Major Power gets its own 'independent' streak of logic, then surely the Russians should make the ChiComm decisions, to stay true to the game if not to history. Remember the debate in the Italy thread? Some people thought an AI Italy should play for itself, others that it should let the Germans make more decisions. I think this question will come up repeatedly in programming the AI. Should the AI play all countries on a side as a unified team? I say yes, that is how you do it in a two player game; any other way is a sentimental choice to see how a decision compares to history, natural and enjoyable for a human wargamer but stupid for an AI logic trying to be the best possible opponent.

[trees]

looking at the map some more makes the importance of the Chang-Sha/Hengchow area even more clear. the Japanese will probably never be able to seriously threaten Chungking or Kweiyang without it due to logistic routes (the same is true for Lan-Chow which can't be approached without Si-An). They'll never cross the Vietnamese border along the rail to Kunming against any realistic opponent.

So I think the Nationalists have two main areas to defend - Chang-Sha, which has three different approach routes, and whatever flanks of Si-An the Communists can't adequately cover.

If the Japanese ever leave the swamp hex SE of Wuhan empty the Chinese should grab it immediately. They should also hold the Pei river hexes south of Chang-Sha as the Japanese must have these to transport the goodies out of China.

their tactics are simple...hold a line in the Tsinling mountains and the range between Chang-sha and Nanchang. the Japanese will have to take occasional combined impulses to reinforce China, and will be sensitive to casualties, so they will want to build-up a maximum possible attack before tackling a Chinese mountain hex. once this build-up is about to peak the Chinese retreat one mountain hex until they hold the hex adjacent to Changsha and the ones in front of Si-An. so I would set up two units in the hex two hexes NE of Chang-sha, a strong corps in the MTN hex east of that, and two units in the hex due east of Chang-Sha where the two rivers enter the lake, and two units adjacent to Canton. Once the Japanese HQ are commited adjustments could be made. Perhaps this would all hold until 1940.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Thank you to all. I am finding your advice very helpful.

I am thinking now in terms of 4 line segments for the Chinese frontline:
1 - South/SW to prevent Japanese advances from from Bruma and Indo-China
2 - South/SE to prevent Japanese advances from Canton and Hainan
3 - East to prevent Japanese advances from Hangchow, Wuhan, and Kaifeng
4 - NE to prevent advances from Kaifeng and Taiyuan.

Each of these front line segments would have victory cities/vital hexes that they need to defend.

My thought here is that the front line is long and the Japanese few (well, so are the Chinese). Therefore, the Chinese should try to respond to the placement/movement of Japanese units. Hopefully, units could be shifted from one segment to another to counter the Japanese offensive thrusts. If Japan has so few units along a front line segment, or supply problems, that attacks are virtually impossible there, then the Chinese can set up a stripped down defense.

This reasoning can also be applied to when the Chinese go on the offensive themselves. Each front line segment would have victory cities/vital hexes in front of it (on the Japanese side) that the Chinese would like to advance towards and capture. If Japan leaves a hole in the line, the Chinese should know how to exploit it, advancing through to a city that can be liberated and serve as a supply source.

The Communists would be almost exclusively concerned with the NE segment, with perhaops some help from the Nationalists.

I haven't fleshed this out by identifying actual city and vital hexes yet.

Comments?

[lomyrin]

I did not see the warlords on the map, that option would cause some changes in the setup.\
 
Lars
 
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
I did not see the warlords on the map, that option would cause some changes in the setup.
Lars

Yes, quite right. Though I will have to write the AIO to play both with and without the Warlords.

There are 6 warlord counters from Politics in Flames that have yet to be added to the CSV file for MWIF (these are the only missing units other than the new ones from the 2007 countersheet modifications). I believe we talked about maybe adding additional warlords for some other cities - a very fuzzy memory.

The 6 units are:
Kunming 4-2 (Nationalist)
Chungking 5-2 (Nationalist)
Chengtu 2-3 (Nationalist)
Lanchow 3-3 (Communist)
Peking 3-2 (Japanese)
Shanghai 4-3 (Japanese)

These units would have to set up and remain within 6 hexes of their home cities.

[hakon]

Has anyone actually printed the map, and tried to playtest china by hand? To me, it seem like a japan that focuses on infantry units until 1940 should be able to steamroll China ever more easily than in the boardgame. In wif, single stacking units do not defend well. And even doubled for mountain, a 3-3 inf is pretty weak.

[lomyrin]

ORIGINAL: hakon

Has anyone actually printed the map, and tried to playtest china by hand? To me, it seem like a japan that focuses on infantry units until 1940 should be able to steamroll China ever more easily than in the boardgame. In wif, single stacking units do not defend well. And even doubled for mountain, a 3-3 inf is pretty weak.

CWiF uses the same scale map for China as the MWiF program but without all the extra cities. In CWiF Japan can indeed be very succesful in China and actually conquer it perhaps half the time. Because of time constraints on the Japanese so they will be ready for the main Pacific war in 41, China often does end up in a stalemate with the Japanese just containing the Chinese remnants and having the benefit of Chinese resources shipped home to Japan.

In MWiF with many more cities giving supply for the Chinese troops and allowing for reinforcements in critical areas, I would expect Japan to have a more difficult time to really overrun China. It is also likely to cost the Japanese additional unit losses and give them fewer resource benefits.

In many WiFFE games Japan emerges as a very strong power in the Pacific and perhaps this China situation may mitigate that situation some.

Lars