War cycle every 110 - 150 years

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Rune Iversen
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Rune Iversen »

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
Obviously the Soviet intervention in Hungary should spring to mind. An elite uprising based on economic benefit to themselves were crushed before they could potentially lead Hungary to it's third unprovoked invasion of Russia in less than 50 years.

Of course, that's strictly using your own rules for what you consider "just" wars, though I doubt it's what you had in mind when you hastily attempted to make your subjective definition an objective one.

Beer...

Funny he can´t see what you are hinting at though [;)]
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Ursa MAior »

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
Hungary had no choice but to join the axis.

Verifyably wrong.

Verify it.


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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Rune Iversen »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Verify it.

Hungary could have stayed neutral Like Yugoslavia did or been of the same sceptical bent as the Bulgarians were (ie. support the axis effort diplomatically but don´t commit any troops). Instead the hungarian fascists, eager for revenge after WW1 and with dreams of a "greater Hungary" gleaming in their eyes threw in their lot with Adolf and got their just desserts, since Adolf promised the greater return. Nobody forced the hungarians to throw in their lot fully with uncle Adolf.All that it would have taken for this to be different was for someone with half a brain to run the hungarian strategy. Not much could have prevented Hungary from falling within the communist sphere after the war though, even if Hungary had remained neutral, but one could at least have hoped for better terms and a greater degree of independence (like Yugoslavia got for instance)
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dinsdale
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
Do you EVEN realize what you are talking about?
Absolutely, in the same way that you get to choose exactly what you consider war to be about, I've performed the very same with the Soviet intervention in Hungary. As a mental exercise, it wasn't very difficult.
Elite uprising?
Yes, participation was by a fraction of the population, easily describable as an elite if one wishes.
Economic benefit?
Yes, capitalism or anti-communism has a distinct economic benefit to those at the top of the food chain. Particularly for the elites who would head the new system.
Third invasion in 50 years?
1914 and 1941. Perhaps after counter-revolutionaries took control in Hungary in 1956, it would revert to facism and find yet another pretext to invade Russia.
You must be mistaking us with someone else.
No, it looks as though you have very selective history in Hungary. Austria-Hungary and then Hungary declared war against Russia/Soviet Union. They weren't unknown events, go look them up.
While joining the 1941 attack on the USSR was not a wise step since no allied power offered ANY chance to reevaluate the completely unjust Trianon Treaty, Hungary had no choice but to join the axis.
No choice if Hungary wished to assert her imperialist aggresssion which had previously resulted in unconditional surrender.

Funnily enough, Hungary's Imperialist ambitions once again ended in unconditional surrender. I'd imagine the Soviets were unwilling to risk Hungary recovering for another bash at taking Moscow.

Obviously, as your population is not taught of the horrific choices your government has made in th e past, and tries to logically explain engaging in genocide and war as "Hungary had no choice" then it was quite justified in snuffing out revisionist counter-revolutionaries in 1956.

I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is.
Funny, anyone who disagrees with you is subject to random ad hominems. Almost as though you're utterly incapable of any kind of adult discussion. Subject is irrelevant, whether it's Napoleonic frigates or subjective labels of "just" wars. There you are screaming and pouting like a 7 year old.
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dinsdale
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

Funny he can´t see what you are hinting at though [;)]

I know, and it's so obvious that it's sad to watch [:)]
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by sven »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior



I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is.





All that is needed for some to find it is a mirror, and brutal self-honesty.

regards,
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Ursa MAior »

Whoa guys I am overwhelmed.
 
Revisionist counter revolutionaries in 56, economic consideration in a nationwide anti-communist movement, imperialist greater Hungary etc. were the last words I was expecting to hear from neoconservative, Bush jr. fanboyz, since these are really commie expressions. I have nothing more to say.
 
Farewell guys.
 
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Rune Iversen »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Whoa guys I am overwhelmed.

Revisionist counter revolutionaries in 56, economic consideration in a nationwide anti-communist movement, imperialist greater Hungary etc. were the last words I was expecting to hear from neoconservative, Bush jr. fanboyz, since these are really commie expressions. I have nothing more to say.

Farewell guys.



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sven
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by sven »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior



Farewell guys.


Hey we are just using the same charming agitprop you choose to use as regards the current conflict no?

"Only just wars should be fought"

"there are no just wars" seems like a circular logic trap to me....

I can judge for myself what is justified I don't need Mr. Kofi, or Billy C to aid me.
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Doggie »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Whoa guys I am overwhelmed.

You most certainly are. Your problem is you have no idea what you are talking about while the "morons" are infinitely more educated on the subject than you are. You did forget to call them "racists" this time, so we are seeing some progress.

"Dinsdale's" synopsis of the Hungarian revolution went right over your head. You're completely out of your league, so you result to the standard feces flinging. Your problem with the "MCS crews" "intellectual level" is that it is light years beyond yours. It's like trying to discuss philosophy with an ape. He scores his best points by reaching, scooping, and flinging, just like you.

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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Twotribes »

Just so Ursa knows, Dinsdale was not serious, he was using your criteria to show you what a joke your claim was. That you fail to understand that underlines the point.
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Culiacan Mexico »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Irony apart could you quote me some just wars….

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

You know a "legal" justification is like an excuse which is like an arse. Everybody has one.
[;)]

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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Culiacan Mexico »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
While joining the 1941 attack on the USSR was not a wise step since no allied power offered ANY chance to reevaluate the completely unjust Trianon Treaty, Hungary had no choice but to join the axis.

I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is.
If your argument is that in 1941 they had no choice but to join the war on the USSR... you are incorrect. The Hungarian government choice was to join in the attack, belatedly, just as they choose not to cooperate with the German with regards to Hungarian Jews.
"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Knuckles_85 »

I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is
Once again an unprovoked attack on MCSH. Do you really want to do this. I think it'd be wise to rethink your strategy
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by cdbeck »

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85
I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is
Once again an unprovoked attack on MCSH. Do you really want to do this. I think it'd be wise to rethink your strategy

How is it that this MCSH crap always spills over here? Supporter or non-supporter of MCSH, isn't this a belligerent and presumptous way to act on another group's message board? I barely know what MCSH is, and I care even less. I come here to read about computer games and polite historical conversation. I don't want to see people get into a whizzing match over the respective merits/intelligence/membership of another non-affliated message board! The people with MCSH sigs seem like intelligent and reasonable people, as do the people that continually fight with them. So can't we leave this crap at the door?

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cdbeck
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by cdbeck »

Oh, and I meant to comment on the OP. I think this must be an error. Not 110-150 years, most likely 11-15 years was what the original theory was. In Europe the major wars (most including Germany) all came in a series of about 10-20 years apart:

Crimean War 1854-1856
Austro-Prussian War 1866
Franco-Prussian War 1870-1871
World War I 1914-1918
World War II 1939-1945

After World War II, the wars get much more contracted for the US:
Korean War 1950-1953
Vietnam War 1959-1975
Persian Gulf War 1990-1991
Iraq War 2003-present

This very small list equates to a war fought by some Western power on an average of every 16 years or so. I believe there was an old 19th or early 20th century (pre-dating WWI) theory that Europe needed to "reconfigure" every 10-20 years and usually did this by means of war. You have to define what a war is before testing this theory and what area you are talking about. If you include the whole world, and ake a very wide definition of "war" then I would guess that that the world has been in a constant state of war for centuries, with very little instance of complete peace.

SoM


"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Paul Vebber »

another non-affliated message board!

It is not "unaffiliated". Matrix asked folks who wanted to talk politics, but could not do it with out some body getting mad and blaming Matrix for "allowing discussions to get out of hand" to take those discussion to a non-Matrix board and MCSH is the one many of us use and recommend becasue it offers a spectrum of "levels of discussions from the Council of War (Where fighting is discouraged), to the Steakhouse (Marquis of Queensbury rules), to the DOg house (the ultimate fighting Octagon) to the Outhouse (the back alley where better bring hains and brass knuckles).

The whole "steakhouse moron" thing has been a few borderline trolls who use their passive aggresive tactics here at Matrix to snipe at others and cry persecution when others reply in kind. The Mods, in usual fashion often hit the return punch, not the provocation. SO Terminus and Ursa and teh like tend to get away with blatant rules violations and pass it off as "steakhouse morons" coming over to pick on them.

They may have some fooled but they don't have me fooled and its gonna come to a head if they don't knock it off.

The next display of blatant ad hominem without any attempt at reasonable argument will get someone a vacation...

Its been quiet, but I sense it getting up a head of steam again.

Don't try it...

While a mod here, I am also...

A Proud Steakhouse moron...



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Mac67
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Mac67 »

Well said, sir! I dont post at the steakhouse myself, and defenitely dont agree with the worldview of some of its members, though respect their right to have their own opinions. As a impartial observer i have seen the steakhouse crowd baited and insulted here many times, mostly by the same few individuals. Glad to see someone making a stand against this. People should be able to post differing views without resorting to childish insults and name calling.
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by Twotribes »

Well said Paul. I am glad that this is being handled in a reasonable manner. I have my differences with the Board in question but the blatant attacks by a few here should be addressed and it sounds like that is going to happen.
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RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

Post by cdbeck »

It is not "unaffiliated". Matrix asked folks who wanted to talk politics, but could not do it with out some body getting mad and blaming Matrix for "allowing discussions to get out of hand" to take those discussion to a non-Matrix board...

Agreed then. Good to know that official policy is not to tolerat this back and forth nonesense. I will agree that the MCSH people get antagonized alot, but "killing in self defense" is still killing, even if less culpable there is still a dead body to chop up and hide in the freezer... uh... I mean report to the lawful authorities. [8D]

SoM
"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade
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