"Gamey" Tactics

[decaro]

1,000 or 10,000, I think the underlying meaning behind "bonsai" is "may you live forever."

Cheating, dueling; How can you take this stuff seriously [:'(] ?

I guess the UK lost its sense of humor after they sent Monty Python here to the colonies (they usually send their "problems" to Australia).

It's a joke, DEB; just like your Prince Charles. What did he say recently, something about prohibiting McDonalds to solve world obesity.

So here's a puzzle for you: How many poached eggs does it take to feed a royal for breakfast?

(I can't believe this nonsense is being posted on the UV site)

[tocaff]

Please don't let this get out of hand.  My post to start the thread was never intended to lead to any flaming.

[DEB]

1,000 or 10,000, I think the underlying meaning behind "bonsai" is "may you live forever."

Again you have spelt it incorrectly - it's BANZAI. Bonsai is the miniture tree thing.

Cheating, dueling; How can you take this stuff seriously [:'(] ?

I just do. Just because the morality levels of the latter centuries have gone downhill, doen't mean I have to follow. Most people these days break most of the Ten Commandments regularly, but they are still the basis of the world's two main religions.

I guess the UK lost its sense of humor after they sent Monty Python here to the colonies (they usually send their "problems" to Australia).

It's better to get rid of your problem folk than encourage other people's to your doorstep ( albeit that the EU encourages us to do so now ).

It's a joke, DEB; just like your Prince Charles. What did he say recently, something about prohibiting McDonalds to solve world obesity.

Your "joke" was poor, and your humour gets nearer the gutter. I suspect that HRH The Prince of Wales was indulging in a little humour too. It's so easy to be misunderstood!

So here's a puzzle for you: How many poached eggs does it take to feed a royal for breakfast?

I don't know and I don't care, but it's likely to be less than an American President !

(I can't believe this nonsense is being posted on the UV site)

Then don't post it!

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: tocaff
Please don't let this get out of hand.  My post to start the thread was never intended to lead to any flaming.

It's OK ! ( Over and done so long as no further insult/s made. )

[tocaff]

CEASE FIRE!

[USSAmerica]

Man!  It's getting hot in here! [X(]
 
Gamey this, gamey that...... it IS a game after all.  [:D]

[decaro]

You're right -- it's only a game -- and it is tocaff's thread, so c'est fini.
Besides, what would the WitP people say?

In UV, "virtually" thousands die and 100's of ship sink, but nobody gets hurt -- except for our feelings.

[tocaff]

Obrigado (Thank you)

[Ike99]

Operating CV air groups from forward airstrips whilst the carriers sit safely in port.

I fail to see how this is "gamey?"[:-]

Historically, the first 2 squadrons of US planes on Quadalcanal came from an aircraft carrier.

[tocaff]

The CV they came from was the Enterprise and her SBDs were only there for a short time due to extenuating circumstances, shortage of LBA that could operate from Henderson.  When we discuss "gamey" it's meant where the Allied player, for example, keeps his CVs in PH for safe keeping while the planes are kept on map for useage during 1942 or the Japanese player later in the game denies VPs and sends the CVs back to Japan and keeps the planes on map.  These are long term strategies that cater to the denial of VPs to the other side while keeping the punch in the game.  Even the desperate Japanese didn't strip their carriers of aircraft until later in the war when they had no more reserves (the Mariana Turkey Shoot).  Of course if these things are deemed by both players to be mutually acceptable then they cease to be "gamey".  Again this is just a thread to discuss what people consider to be "gamey" and through the use of the percentage of ships that will be made available in the game is the ultimate balancer.

[decaro]

Has "gamey" and "ahistorical" become synonomous?

[Ike99]

Hi tocaff,

The CV they came from was the Enterprise and her SBDs were only there for a short time due to extenuating circumstances

I think the first 2 squadrons came from CVL Long Island. F4F's and SBD's. After dropping them off the Long Island promptly ran to port. If Enterprise later dropped off 2 more squadrons I don't know. I could look it up. But I'm pretty sure the first 2 came from Long Island.

But it's not important.

I was thinking "gamey" meant something that is possible to do in the game but in reality is kind of silly. I don't think putting carrier air squadrons on forward bases is gamey at all, it was done quite often actually.

What your describing about running your capital ships (CV's mainly) off the board to keep them from being sunk...hmmmm...that's tough. At face value I'm thinking if a guy wants to pull his carriers out of the theatre, ok...what's the problem.

I just got this game recently though. I'll have to play it through a couple times to see. Seems like from what limited play time I have with it, if a guy runs his carriers off the board to keep them from being sunk, he must be losing, or going to lose anyways. That's what I'm thinking. I don't know though. I haven't played it enough.

Did an opponent do this on you and it cost you a game tocaff?

[tocaff]

Let's say that hiding away like that can force the Allied player to take Rabul if he nedd over 2.5K VPs in mid to late '43 and that going to be tough to do depending on the overall situation.  The Long Island ferried Marine squadrons to the 'Canal as she was used for that purpose at the time.

[Marc gto]

i could be wrong but when you send ships back to pearl or japan...dont the get upgraded equiptment such as radar and more aaa??

[bradfordkay]

Admiral King flirted with the idea of ordering the carriers to stay out of reach of enemy air and just send their squadrons forward to fly from island bases. Thus I cannot call this "gamey" as it was a tactic that was considered in real life...

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Hi tocaff,

The CV they came from was the Enterprise and her SBDs were only there for a short time due to extenuating circumstances

I think the first 2 squadrons came from CVL Long Island. F4F's and SBD's. After dropping them off the Long Island promptly ran to port. If Enterprise later dropped off 2 more squadrons I don't know. I could look it up. But I'm pretty sure the first 2 came from Long Island.

The LI is so worthless in UV, I can easilly understand why it was only used to ferry aircraft. And as many times as I have sent it back to pearl in the hope that the LI would return worth a damn, it still comes back as a defenseless, floating ferry.

[tocaff]

You guys are missing my point.  To avoid making the VPs available to your oponent you remove the ships from the game.  My example is as follows:

It's late March or early April of 1943 in scenario 19 and the Allied side is on the move rolling back your defensive bases.  One by one they fall and you are still holding a 2.5K to 3K lead in VPs because you've managed to sink 6 or so of his CVs.  The KB is now flying obsolete planes and the pilots are droppiing in quality all of the time.  The Allied LBA in dominating the skies and no matter where you base your fleet, other than Truk, Allied recon finds them and the following day WHAM!  Your ships are being bombed in harbor, every harbor, so what should you do?  Keep the ships out of harm's way in Truk where they are safe and available for future use or send them back to Japan where they can't be sunk?  The game uses VPs to determine winners and losers if there is no auto victory gained and this is a needed thing.  I would rather sink your transports than your CVs since without lift capacity there are no assaults and no supplies to fight the war.  So there are many players who use house rules to prohibit the withdrawl of the CVs to protect them unless they leave with their air groups.  It's not an easy task to take Rabul and with high value ships removed from play it's the only way to make up the point gap before the end of the game for the Allied side.  Try PBEM and see how these games play out and your opinions may change.  "Gamey" is only gamey in the eyes of the beholder.

[Marc gto]

hi todd... maybe you could make a set date which they cannot be sent back for upgrades just repair

[tocaff]

Returning a ship for upgrades is fine, repairs are fine too.  This is a situation where like many things done in PBEM relies on the honesty of both players.  That's why those of us who play PBEM tend to keep returning to the same opponents because we get good games and side banter also.

[decaro]

I can't speak for PBEM play/players, but there are drawbacks to sending your carriers back home while land-basing their aircraft; not only do you lose offensive capabilities -- such as the element of surprise, as you can never be sure exactly where/when a carrier fleet will appear -- but airfields can get bombed to uselessness while the aircraft die stranded on the ground.

Sending your CVs back while ahead in the game reminds me of how some Russian Grand Masters would get ahead by a point or two in a chess tournament, and then play "drawish" openings for the remainder of the match. It was never appreciated by their opponents, but it was an acceptable practice that was never considered "gamey."

Maybe PREM was meant to be played "no holds barred," i.e., anything the game engine allows, whether the Allies or the IJN would do it or not.